INF without engineers build/expand base?

[morphin]

Hi
I have searched the forum. One member says that infantry without engineers can build fortifications up to 1 in a base (dot base hex). Can they also expand AF from O to 1? And has somebody seen that the fortifications raised to 1 (or higher) without any engineer? I just wonder if it is worth and how long it takes without any engineer to build fortifications

[btd64]

You need engineers for any type of construction....GP

[bradfordkay]

Level 1 fortifications are basically foxholes, barbed wire, and other temporary fortifications that can be created by infantry. Anything beyond that requires engineer squads.

[Chris21wen]

According to the manual they do but never been able to prove it. What I think it's trying to say is 'engineer units' and not simply 'engineers' as many units do have some engineer devives.

8.4.4 Ground Units and Fortifications
Ground units that are in a base/beach hex assume the fortification level of the base/beach, except for units that have a separate fortification level set at the
start of a scenario. Ground units that are not in a base/beach and are not moving will automatically attempt to build fortifications to protect themselves from
attacking enemy ground units. Engineers in the hex will help in the building of these fortifications. Engineers will only provide this help if the Engineer is in
Combat OpMode and does not have a Destination. Although units without the help of engineers can build fortifications, the work will proceed very slowly.


This appears to be but it has 4 engineer devices.

Screenshot 2025-05-27 074711.jpg (19.3 KiB) Viewed 296 times

[RangerJoe]

Units without engineers can only build forts/fortifications when not in a base.

[PaxMondo]

Units without engineers can only build forts/fortifications when not in a base.

Correct. You see this as IJ player with the Thai units. no engrs, but in jungle hexes they will build forts up to level 3. Never seen more than level 3.

[morphin]

ok . Thank's. I have found old threats... It is now clear that enginneer (squads) are needed to expand bases.

Here is a link i just found. Fortifications in a base need engineer too:

https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... s&start=20

[dasboot1960]

I believe I have seen this to fort level 1 in game starts where auto upgrade is on. Specifically, US bases Palmyra Johnston - that bunch. Can't prove it (test what?). I'm not beyond being flat wrong.

[Chris21wen]

Units without engineers can only build forts/fortifications when not in a base.

v26b

There's a problem here, either it's incorrect or it's just the info being dispayed is incorrectly. If it is correct it implies engineers are required to build any forts? Thats wrong so I hope it's a display error.

In the pic posted earlier notice the 'Building' after the forts. This to me indicates it is has dug in and is expanding to max fort level of 3. It has engineer devices.

This one does not have any engineer devices and shows no indiation that it is digging in, e.g. it does not say 'building'. I have check the only othe other location I can find where there are no engineers present and that is the same.

Screenshot 2025-05-29 082707.jpg (22.03 KiB) Viewed 165 times

[RangerJoe]

Units without engineers can only build forts/fortifications when not in a base.

v26b

There's a problem here, either it's incorrect or it's just the info being dispayed is incorrectly. If it is correct it implies engineers are required to build any forts? Thats wrong so I hope it's a display error.

In the pic posted earlier notice the 'Building' after the forts. This to me indicates it is has dug in and is expanding to max fort level of 3. It has engineer devices.

This one does not have any engineer devices and shows no indiation that it is digging in, e.g. it does not say 'building'. I have check the only othe other location I can find where there are no engineers present and that is the same.

Screenshot 2025-05-29 082707.jpg

Without opening the game, if that unit is not in a base then it can build forts. It can build them up to level 6. The smaller units seem to build them faster, the large units unless broken down have a harder time getting past level 2. If the units are broken into thirds, when they recombine they can keep forts but not at the highest level of any third. It is usually the lowest of the 3 unless one is not fortified.

[PaxMondo]

I believe I have seen this to fort level 1 in game starts where auto upgrade is on. Specifically, US bases Palmyra Johnston - that bunch. Can't prove it (test what?). I'm not beyond being flat wrong.

In a base, everything that I know and have seen, is that you need engineers to build fortifications. At least one engineer type squad.

In Scen001, Palmyra starts with Fortification 0 and 2 units. In particular this one:

Screenshot 2025-05-29 042745.jpg (80.27 KiB) Viewed 149 times

With the engineering units contained, this base will be able to build fortifications.

[PaxMondo]

Now, going back to non-base fortifications which Alfred referred to as entrenchment (nice distinction). I ran a test (love the newer laptops with tons of speed and RAM, spin 10 turns in just a few minutes).

Test location:

Screenshot 2025-05-29 052938.jpg (21.57 KiB) Viewed 143 times

Here is a unit without Engr that now has level 1 forts:

Screenshot 2025-05-29 053100.jpg (87.5 KiB) Viewed 143 times

Note the lack of Engr squads, BUT there is TOE for them ....

For this test, I actually sent 5 units to the hex. Only 2 have forts built after 10 turns. Still, you can see that it can (does) happen.

[PaxMondo]

After +60 turns, only at forts 2, still no engr squads present.

Screenshot 2025-05-29 065253.jpg (84.43 KiB) Viewed 136 times

[PaxMondo]

Separate test, unit has no engr squads AND has no TOE for any engr squads.

Located here:

Screenshot 2025-05-29 065106.jpg (10.91 KiB) Viewed 135 times

And after + 60 turns no forts.

Screenshot 2025-05-29 065142.jpg (84.26 KiB) Viewed 135 times

[RangerJoe]

Now, going back to non-base fortifications which Alfred referred to as entrenchment (nice distinction). I ran a test (love the newer laptops with tons of speed and RAM, spin 10 turns in just a few minutes).

Test location:
Screenshot 2025-05-29 052938.jpg

Here is a unit without Engr that now has level 1 forts:
Screenshot 2025-05-29 053100.jpg
Note the lack of Engr squads, BUT there is TOE for them ....

For this test, I actually sent 5 units to the hex. Only 2 have forts built after 10 turns. Still, you can see that it can (does) happen.

If you divided that division into thirds, the forts will be built faster. Then when you combine them, they will at least have the lowest level of fort for all of the subunits if they have at least had a level 1 fort. Sometimes, the entire unit will get a fort level even if one third does not have one but the other units have at least a level 1 fort. I have not tested this so I don't know the limits.

[PaxMondo]

OK, so in summary what do we know.

First, Alfred posted this:
https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... 0#p2621900

For those of you new who don't know Alfred, and as a reminder to the rest of us; there are 3 things about Alfred that you need to know:
1. Alfred is NEVER WRONG. He is so thorough in his research. I can do a fair job of online searching, but in comparison I am stumbling while Alfred flies.

2. Alfred had a connection to Henderson. Exactly what, I don't know, but he did. I don't find his name in the credits (maybe I'm blind or an alias), so he wasn't an official dev, but he clearly had some form of access.

Taking these two things in conjunction with my test results, here are my conclusions about entrenchment:
1. It takes engineers to entrench a unit in a non-base hex.
2. The apparent max level of entrenchment is 3.
3. The engineer squads only need be part of the TOE.

I think this last one was a dev oops, I believe that they intended engr squads to be needed, but looked at the TOE variable instead of what it actually present. Depending upon the naming convention being used, easy to do, but hard to spot. Given this observation, I believe this how Alfred made his conclusion in his Fortification 101 treatise. The devs intended that only engr could entrench, and this IS true. But I suspect not exactly how they intended. Close though. Rare cases to find the exception.

This is as definitive as I can do. Remember, I am not a dev, have never seen the code, and this is all based upon empirical testing.

3rd thing about Alfred: WE MISS HIM!!!!!

[Chris21wen]

OK, so in summary what do we know.
......

Taking these two things in conjunction with my test results, here are my conclusions about entrenchment:
1. It takes engineers to entrench a unit in a non-base hex.
2. The apparent max level of entrenchment is 3.
3. The engineer squads only need be part of the TOE.

I think this last one was a dev oops, I believe that they intended engr squads to be needed, but looked at the TOE variable instead of what it actually present. Depending upon the naming convention being used, easy to do, but hard to spot. Given this observation, I believe this how Alfred made his conclusion in his Fortification 101 treatise. The devs intended that only engr could entrench, and this IS true. But I suspect not exactly how they intended. Close though. Rare cases to find the exception.

This is as definitive as I can do. Remember, I am not a dev, have never seen the code, and this is all based upon empirical testing.

3rd thing about Alfred: WE MISS HIM!!!!!

More or less the conclusion I came too, unless it is a display error.

I do disagree that engineer should be needed to dig in, any squaddie can dig a hole.

[PaxMondo]

...
I do disagree that engineer should be needed to dig in, any squaddie can dig a hole.

That would level 1 entrenchment: foxhole. So sure.

Above that? berms etc. Squaddies could help, but they need direction. I think the engineer requirement pretty sound, and while it is definitely a mix of work in some armies, in others not so much. The coding complexity I don't think worth the effort. In simplest form, I think you say you need engineers.

[821Bobo]

2. The apparent max level of entrenchment is 3.

Not true. From my game

fort.jpg (127.94 KiB) Viewed 69 times

You can get at least to 6(not seen in picture but I do have level 6 dug in Chinese), but I guess even 9 is possible given enough time and engineers heavy unit.

[RangerJoe]

2. The apparent max level of entrenchment is 3.

Not true. From my game

fort.jpg

You can get at least to 6(not seen in picture but I do have level 6 dug in Chinese), but I guess even 9 is possible given enough time and engineers heavy unit.

I think that level 6 is the highest outside of a base. In a base you need lots of supplies, engineers, and time.