Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE

[Nikademus]

naw....i'd say their having laughability issues which in turn are affecting their accuracy due to teary eyes. [:)]

[crsutton]

The J model (I think) had dive brakes added to help it pull out of high speed dives. Really were multi use combat brakes. Top pilots could manipulate them in combat and do some nasty manuevers. I don't know if the J model was used in NW Europe, but it would have been a match for about any other fighter. Late model P38 was a "hot" fighter. Only real fault was that it was too expensive to make vs single engine planes.

[Dili]

It is not a very good idea to use brakes in air combat, unless you are risking to be a mush in the ground.

[tigercub]

P38 a hot fighter...NO way good Fighter VS Japs its speed and diving gave it a Distinct Advantage its slashing attacks were very had to counter for slow Jap planes VS German fighters was far harder for this type of attack, P38 was No world beater in Europe but it was very usefull in 1943 in Italy were it did best.
Twin engine planes all ways had a problem fighting single engine planes but the P38 was one of the better ones.
Nikademus(The Zero out climbed the P38 its only the Bounce attack of using its speed diving onto a zero and climbing away is when it was better)
from a standing start to 20,000 feet the zero was a faster climber.
Tiger!
    

[Grotius]

How is the altitude at which combat takes place determined.

For example if the CAP is at 10,000ft and a sweep comes in at 25,000ft where does combat take place?

I'm curious about this too.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: tigercub
Nikademus(The Zero out climbed the P38 its only the Bounce attack of using its speed diving onto a zero and climbing away is when it was better)
from a standing start to 20,000 feet the zero was a faster climber.
Tiger!
  

The reference i cited referred to the P-38 engaging Zeros from alt advantage above 20,000 feet from which it could then zoom climb after it's pass, utilzing it's power and speed to regain and retain altitude advantage. Under these conditions, the Lightning could outclimb the Zero.

[Sardaukar]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

I'd rather be "plagued" with compressibility issues, than "I can't keep up" issues...

I think I'd be quite disturbed about compressiblity...words come to my mind..like "auger" and "lawn dart" [:'(] But that's why I don't fly planes...[:D]

BTW, as others have asked, how does the program determine in which altitude opposing aircraft meet in A2A combat? For example, CAP is at 20k and Sweep is coming in at 25k? Is it some function of detection and climb rates etc. ? Or does the lower altitude participant try to climb at all to meet enemy at more equal ground? If I recall correctly, higher altitude plane has quite an advantage in AE, lowering the maneuverability of the lower altitude one?

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: Dili

It is not a very good idea to use brakes in air combat, unless you are risking to be a mush in the ground.

Why not? It worked great for Maverick...[;)]

[medicff]

ORIGINAL: Grotius

How is the altitude at which combat takes place determined.

For example if the CAP is at 10,000ft and a sweep comes in at 25,000ft where does combat take place?

I'm curious about this too.

I will third that request [;)]

[tondern]

ORIGINAL: medicff

ORIGINAL: Grotius

How is the altitude at which combat takes place determined.

For example if the CAP is at 10,000ft and a sweep comes in at 25,000ft where does combat take place?

I'm curious about this too.

I will third that request [;)]

I will "fourth it" and add two other altitude questions.

If you have your fighters on escort, are they most effective at EXACTLY the same altitude as the bombers, or if they fly high cover (plus several thousand feet). I don't want to learn this the hard way by losing many of my available bombers in the first two weeks.

And if you expect enemy bombers at, say 17,000, should you set CAP at exactly 17,000 or try to give them a couple of thousand feet of altitude advantage?

Thanks,
Johnny

[bigmilt]

Remember in the eto it was a bomber escort or ground attack plane which meant Germans could get the altitude advantage. In the
Pto it was primarily a hunter so it could use it's altitude and speed to it's advantage.

[Jorm]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

ORIGINAL: TheElf

I'd rather be "plagued" with compressibility issues, than "I can't keep up" issues...

I think I'd be quite disturbed about compressiblity...words come to my mind..like "auger" and "lawn dart" [:'(] But that's why I don't fly planes...[:D]

Yep, thus my initial query about it.
Im reading a book on the development of the P38 just now and it talks alot about a bunch of crashes due to high speed compressibility problems, ie it was mostly terminal untill they worked out what was happening and how to fix it.

In my ignorace i thought the problems were due to the specific design of the P38 and didnt realise that compressability problems occur for all aircraft at or around the speend of sound.

Haveto love this forum, you can get a real eduction from some of the posts,

i stand ready to receive the 1st WITP phD from study of the forums

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: tondern

ORIGINAL: medicff

ORIGINAL: Grotius


I'm curious about this too.

I will third that request [;)]

I will "fourth it" and add two other altitude questions.

If you have your fighters on escort, are they most effective at EXACTLY the same altitude as the bombers, or if they fly high cover (plus several thousand feet). I don't want to learn this the hard way by losing many of my available bombers in the first two weeks.

And if you expect enemy bombers at, say 17,000, should you set CAP at exactly 17,000 or try to give them a couple of thousand feet of altitude advantage?

Thanks,
Johnny

Well since it was fourth'd...

The "merge", if you will, simply occurs at some point between the altitude of the Lower group and the higher group.

1st of all there are a lot of checks that occur prior to combat being joined, and then re-checked again through out the combat resolution. One group detects another. It is either higher, Co-Alt, or lower. If it is Co-Alt or lower it climbs. The race for initiative begins when both groups are aware of each other. Then a semi-random positioning phase begins. I say Semi because values are used from each side to determine an advantage of some kind...or not. You can use your imagination as to what Values might be important here.

Then it's time to begin. A snapshot of the two groups is taken and bonuses are drawn from that instantaneous Freeze-frame right as the first shot is fired. There is no hard and fast formula I can point to say it A is this many feet higher than B then Altitude Y will be where combat occurs.

Detection levels matter, Radar detection, Detection Range, climbrate, LDR skills, EXP, Weather, Mission type, etc.

It's all very complicated....[;)]
Let's assume that we are at the point where the

[denisonh]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

(SNIP)
It's all very complicated....[;)]
Let's assume that we are at the point where the

Don't leave us hanging Ian.....

[tondern]

Detection levels matter, Radar detection, Detection Range, climbrate, LDR skills, EXP, Weather, Mission type, etc.

It's all very complicated....[;)]
Let's assume that we are at the point where the
[/quote]


Hey Elf .. Elf? Are you all right ? (In old movies when the HERO (Elf) is cut off in mid-sentence, it is rarely a good sign.)

Complicated is good, as it's realistic. My take away is that altitude is good for "initiative," but hardly a guarantor of success.

I'm still puzzled about best altitudes for escort and CAP against bombers - but so were the actual commanders of yore. In YH vs. TS I see Allied CAP often set pretty low, around 7k. Perhaps this is a compromise altitude to intercept low and higher-level raids? YH responds with sweeps at 10k (altitude advantage?) and bombers at 15-17k.

Lots of tactical puzzles here. Excellent.

Yours,
Johnny

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: denisonh

ORIGINAL: TheElf

(SNIP)
It's all very complicated....[;)]
Let's assume that we are at the point where the

Don't leave us hanging Ian.....

Whups...I've slept since then...can't remember what...

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: tondern

Detection levels matter, Radar detection, Detection Range, climbrate, LDR skills, EXP, Weather, Mission type, etc.

It's all very complicated....[;)]

Hey Elf .. Elf? Are you all right ? (In old movies when the HERO (Elf) is cut off in mid-sentence, it is rarely a good sign.)

Complicated is good, as it's realistic. My take away is that altitude is good for "initiative," but hardly a guarantor of success.

[/quote]
I'm fine.[;)] I realize now that that fragment was a sentence I started and then edited out, but didn't acutally delete.

Complicated is good, as it's realistic. My take away is that altitude is good for "initiative," but hardly a guarantor of success.

Quite right. You might have the Advantage at that moment in time, but if the LDR has 40 Air Rating, a 35 AGGR rating, and the unit AVG EXP is 50 the initial bonuses drawn prior to the first shot will not be as effective, and follow on rounds will likely see a shift in momentum toward the lower group.

Unfortunately it is very difficult to represent this given the structure of the game as it was originally designed, so players might assume that initial altitude advantages are all they need to win an engagement. Not true. You need a LOT of things working for you to be decisive.

I'm still puzzled about best altitudes for escort and CAP against bombers - but so were the actual commanders of yore. In YH vs. TS I see Allied CAP often set pretty low, around 7k. Perhaps this is a compromise altitude to intercept low and higher-level raids? YH responds with sweeps at 10k (altitude advantage?) and bombers at 15-17k.

Well (and I'll give the Top Gun answer): it depends...You may be hit by two raids or more in the same phase. What altitudes will they be at? What Fighters will accompany them? What altitude is THEIR best altitude? Which tpye of raid are you most concerned with? Low fast attack bombers? Mid-alt Dive bombers? High level 4E bombers? What are you protecting? That will determine what you biggest threat is...

Ultimately the real answer is there IS NO "best" altitude. You won't ever be able to say definitively that I will ALWAYS set CAP at Altitude X. That's what I was aiming for...

Lots of tactical puzzles here. Excellent.

Yours,
Johnny

Enjoy the puzzle.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: denisonh

ORIGINAL: TheElf

(SNIP)
It's all very complicated....[;)]
Let's assume that we are at the point where the

Don't leave us hanging Ian.....

Hi Harvey. Back among the land of the living?

[tigercub]

Love your Art work that Rocks

[BAR]

Wouldn't the Allied Radar, when developed, be able to communicate with the CAP as to the altitude of incoming raids? Is there any modelling of communication between ground controllers and air units? I would hope that if I have a CAP around a major port or base with available Radar capability and set it's altitude to 15,000 feet but have a raid detected at 25,000 feet that my CAP just doesn't sit at 15K when they could have been climbing for the intercept.