Alternative History for the Historically Minded

[GaryChildress]

Many here are very strict history buffs. You want a game that is strictly, historically accurate. One of my hobbies is creating alternative history game art (or really any art which has not already been done by the AE crew).

In order to make some of my art a little more palatable for the main stream WITP history fanatic, I propose the following:

WITP is UNDENIABLY "alternative history" the minute the game starts. From that point forward history of the Pacific theater is dramatically rewritten. Therefore what is so objectionable about adding a few "what-if" binds to the building queue?

For instance, I've created a CVL conversion of the Omaha class cruisers which, though never implemented, was in fact once thought over by the US Navy. Why not create a "bind" in the editor whereby the player could convert Omaha class CLs to CVLs IN GAME? Is that any more objectionable than creating binds for the Japanese to turn Fuso into a flight deck battleship and what not? It gives the player a little more flexibility over his building program and if players can already buildout ships which were historically never refitted during the war, then why not give the player more room to convert different ships into different types of refits?

Just a thought. I'm curious what the strictly history buffs think of the idea? [:)]

[Pascal_slith]

I'm all for following different tracks (as long as it is not 'fantasy').

Another 'what if' would be the Japanese NOT building the Musashi and scrapping it to build 2-3 new carriers (Shokaku/Zuikakau class?). Or even better, giving the Japanese a few more shipyards and shipyard points to produce quicker and earlier. Same for aircraft factories and the amount of new pilots (at albeit lower starting ratings).

Obviously these don't involve additional artwork.

One that would is the production of a Japanese 4-engine bomber, like a project based on the Ju-290E


Well, looks like the image upload system has tanked on me....

[Pascal_slith]

Here's the Ju-290A-8



Well, maybe not...[:(]

[Pascal_slith]

One last try...




Yes!

A quote from Axis History Forum

The Ju-290 A-8 series was developed for the Japanese as a long range bomber, but they lost interest due to concerns that the aircraft could not be delivered without crossing Soviet airspace. Japan did not want to trigger a war with Russia.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Pascal

I'm all for following different tracks (as long as it is not 'fantasy').

Another 'what if' would be the Japanese NOT building the Musashi and scrapping it to build 2-3 new carriers (Shokaku/Zuikakau class?). Or even better, giving the Japanese a few more shipyards and shipyard points to produce quicker and earlier. Same for aircraft factories and the amount of new pilots (at albeit lower starting ratings).
_________________

Two or three more Shokaku's in place of the Musashi IS fantasy..., unless you want them without any air groups. Trained carrier air groups are an expensive proposition in time and money, both to create and to maintain.

[Pascal_slith]

There's also the Nakajima G8N

[Pascal_slith]

And the Ju-390, awfully similar to the Ju-290

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: Pascal

I'm all for following different tracks (as long as it is not 'fantasy').

Another 'what if' would be the Japanese NOT building the Musashi and scrapping it to build 2-3 new carriers (Shokaku/Zuikakau class?). Or even better, giving the Japanese a few more shipyards and shipyard points to produce quicker and earlier. Same for aircraft factories and the amount of new pilots (at albeit lower starting ratings).
_________________

Two or three more Shokaku's in place of the Musashi IS fantasy..., unless you want them without any air groups. Trained carrier air groups are an expensive proposition in time and money, both to create and to maintain.

Perhaps I didn't say it correctly, but that is what I was thinking when speaking about more new pilots at lower ratings.

The Japanese selection system was not in sync with their pilot requirements. Had they been more realistic, they would have produced pilots with overall lower ratings at the outset and put them into operational use, similar to the US and UK system. I don't see any 'fantasy' in that. The carrier air groups could have been available.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Pascal

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: Pascal

I'm all for following different tracks (as long as it is not 'fantasy').

Another 'what if' would be the Japanese NOT building the Musashi and scrapping it to build 2-3 new carriers (Shokaku/Zuikakau class?). Or even better, giving the Japanese a few more shipyards and shipyard points to produce quicker and earlier. Same for aircraft factories and the amount of new pilots (at albeit lower starting ratings).
_________________

Two or three more Shokaku's in place of the Musashi IS fantasy..., unless you want them without any air groups. Trained carrier air groups are an expensive proposition in time and money, both to create and to maintain.

Perhaps I didn't say it correctly, but that is what I was thinking when speaking about more new pilots at lower ratings.

The Japanese selection system was not in sync with their pilot requirements. Had they been more realistic, they would have produced pilots with overall lower ratings at the outset and put them into operational use, similar to the US and UK system. I don't see any 'fantasy' in that. The carrier air groups could have been available.

And what I meant was that a Carrier Air Group is a continually wasting asset, even in peace time. In wartime, any Air Group (unless you keep it grounded and lose the training "edge"), it needs to be totally replaced at LEAST once a year. And Carrier Air Groups have the highest non-combat attrition of all.

[GaryChildress]

What do people think of adding conversions to the database which were not historically carried out? For instance if Omaha class CLs could be converted into CVLs during the game? Or converting older cruisers into AA cruisers?

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: Pascal

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1





Two or three more Shokaku's in place of the Musashi IS fantasy..., unless you want them without any air groups. Trained carrier air groups are an expensive proposition in time and money, both to create and to maintain.

Perhaps I didn't say it correctly, but that is what I was thinking when speaking about more new pilots at lower ratings.

The Japanese selection system was not in sync with their pilot requirements. Had they been more realistic, they would have produced pilots with overall lower ratings at the outset and put them into operational use, similar to the US and UK system. I don't see any 'fantasy' in that. The carrier air groups could have been available.

And what I meant was that a Carrier Air Group is a continually wasting asset, even in peace time. In wartime, any Air Group (unless you keep it grounded and lose the training "edge"), it needs to be totally replaced at LEAST once a year. And Carrier Air Groups have the highest non-combat attrition of all.

Don't see any of this as mutually exclusive...so I guess we agree [:D]

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

What do people think of adding conversions to the database which were not historically carried out? For instance if Omaha class CLs could be converted into CVLs during the game? Or converting older cruisers into AA cruisers?

Sure. But as you did for your CL conversion, I would first work on variants that were historically considered.

[Shark7]

Speaking of alternate history, here are a few German plane types the Japanese did show interest in, but never actually acquired...or in some cases could not mass produce after acquiring units to study:

1. 1 Ju-87 A-1 Stuka (Called the Ju-87 K-1) for testing
2. 1 FW-190 A-5 for testing
3. 5 Bf-109 E-7 for testing
4. ~25 He-100 D-0 (also called He-113) Fighters, these were to be put into production for the IJN, but the required tooling failed to arrive following the start of WWII.
5. 1 FW-200 V10, ordered but not delivered due to the start of WWII.
6. 44 HE-111F, order cancelled in 1938.
7. 30 He-112B used for training and testing
8. Plans for Me-163
9. 1 Me-210 for testing
10. Plans for Ta-152
11. Do-217 (Japanese wanted one for evaluation, but delivery was blocked by the Luftwaffe).
12. Plans for Ju-88 ASW version...eventually led to indigenous Q1W Tokai
13. License to produce the Ju-390 A-1 was acquired, but plans were not delivered prior to Germany's surrender.
14. License and Blueprints for Ju-388 Acquired in 08-1944...none produced.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Speaking of alternate history, here are a few German plane types the Japanese did show interest in, but never actually acquired...or in some cases could not mass produce after acquiring units to study:

1. 1 Ju-87 A-1 Stuka (Called the Ju-87 K-1) for testing
2. 1 FW-190 A-5 for testing
3. 5 Bf-109 E-7 for testing
4. ~25 He-100 D-0 (also called He-113) Fighters, these were to be put into production for the IJN, but the required tooling failed to arrive following the start of WWII.
5. 1 FW-200 V10, ordered but not delivered due to the start of WWII.
6. 44 HE-111F, order cancelled in 1938.
7. 30 He-112B used for training and testing
8. Plans for Me-163
9. 1 Me-210 for testing
10. Plans for Ta-152
11. Do-217 (Japanese wanted one for evaluation, but delivery was blocked by the Luftwaffe).
12. Plans for Ju-88 ASW version...eventually led to indigenous Q1W Tokai
13. License to produce the Ju-390 A-1 was acquired, but plans were not delivered prior to Germany's surrender.
14. License and Blueprints for Ju-388 Acquired in 08-1944...none produced.

The problem with all these is that Japanese Industry had a real problem with building and maintaining the high tolerance German engines. Just look at the problems they had with the Tony. And the situation just got worse as the war continued and the industry had to try and expand from too small a base.

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

What do people think of adding conversions to the database which were not historically carried out? For instance if Omaha class CLs could be converted into CVLs during the game? Or converting older cruisers into AA cruisers?

To my mind it depends how much the conversions diverge from reality. Would it actually be possible to turn the Omahas into CVLs for example? Like a few others on the bosrds I'd be more interested in the Commonwealth nations.

1. D-Class CL into CLAA (similar to HMS Delhi)
2. Refitting the Australian V-Class DDs into LRE ships.
3. A partial rebuild of Repulse.
4. A rebuild of other County cruisers to the same standard as HMS London.

I've got a few other ideas, but they're all firmly in the "what-if" category.

[RUDOLF]

Germany traded several Jet engine blueprints for the license and blueprints to make the 46cm guns used by the Yamato. But for one reason or another Germany never used the design.

[RUDOLF]

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

What do people think of adding conversions to the database which were not historically carried out? For instance if Omaha class CLs could be converted into CVLs during the game? Or converting older cruisers into AA cruisers?

To my mind it depends how much the conversions diverge from reality. Would it actually be possible to turn the Omahas into CVLs for example? Like a few others on the bosrds I'd be more interested in the Commonwealth nations.

1. D-Class CL into CLAA (similar to HMS Delhi)
2. Refitting the Australian V-Class DDs into LRE ships.
3. A partial rebuild of Repulse.
4. A rebuild of other County cruisers to the same standard as HMS London.

I've got a few other ideas, but they're all firmly in the "what-if" category.

I think it would be far more interesting to look at this "what if's" for the Japanese.
Could changed balance a bit and make the game more interesting in the long run.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Speaking of alternate history, here are a few German plane types the Japanese did show interest in, but never actually acquired...or in some cases could not mass produce after acquiring units to study:

1. 1 Ju-87 A-1 Stuka (Called the Ju-87 K-1) for testing
2. 1 FW-190 A-5 for testing
3. 5 Bf-109 E-7 for testing
4. ~25 He-100 D-0 (also called He-113) Fighters, these were to be put into production for the IJN, but the required tooling failed to arrive following the start of WWII.
5. 1 FW-200 V10, ordered but not delivered due to the start of WWII.
6. 44 HE-111F, order cancelled in 1938.
7. 30 He-112B used for training and testing
8. Plans for Me-163
9. 1 Me-210 for testing
10. Plans for Ta-152
11. Do-217 (Japanese wanted one for evaluation, but delivery was blocked by the Luftwaffe).
12. Plans for Ju-88 ASW version...eventually led to indigenous Q1W Tokai
13. License to produce the Ju-390 A-1 was acquired, but plans were not delivered prior to Germany's surrender.
14. License and Blueprints for Ju-388 Acquired in 08-1944...none produced.

The problem with all these is that Japanese Industry had a real problem with building and maintaining the high tolerance German engines. Just look at the problems they had with the Tony. And the situation just got worse as the war continued and the industry had to try and expand from too small a base.

And as I noted, none of these were actually produced. However, if one wants to make an alternate history scenario, these are potential aircraft.

Remember we are talking completely non-historical scenarios here.

[Pascal_slith]

Interesting book on alternate history (from a strategic/operational outcome perspective) is Rising Sun Victorious (editor is Peter Tsouras).

For a different idea, I've always thought an interesting variant would be the influence of non-Pacific factors in terms of effects on reinforcements
and the situation of the Soviets.

Specifically, the idea would be a random event generator with a probability distribution that the player can set at the beginning of the game (the parameters would be 'peak' (kurtosis) and 'bias' (skewness). The random event generator could create, for example, a news stream which would have an influence on how soon/late, how much/little of your reinforcements you would get (the premise being 'Germany First').

For example, a news item could be, for February 1942, 'North African campaign getting very difficult for 8th Army - more material diverted to that theater and units retained'. This would change both the pool of materials and the ground & air reinforcement schedule.

Another example could be in June 1942, 'Soviets taking very heavy losses on Eastern Front - no more units sent to Trans-Siberia and some units there recalled to front', leading to withdrawal dates for some Soviet units.

Depending on 'peakedness' of the distribution, most if not all results could lead to no change.

[MateDow]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
...For instance, I've created a CVL conversion of the Omaha class cruisers which, though never implemented, was in fact once thought over by the US Navy. Why not create a "bind" in the editor whereby the player could convert Omaha class CLs to CVLs IN GAME? Is that any more objectionable than creating binds for the Japanese to turn Fuso into a flight deck battleship and what not? It gives the player a little more flexibility over his building program and if players can already buildout ships which were historically never refitted during the war, then why not give the player more room to convert different ships into different types of refits?

Just a thought. I'm curious what the strictly history buffs think of the idea? [:)]

I have no problem with conversions like the Omaha-class CVL or CLAA when they are backed up by real data. For the US ships, I think that this data is contained in books like Friedman's US Cruisers, and is based on real design studies made by the US Navy. These will probably be very expensive conversions similar in cost to those performed on the West Virginia, California or Tennessee. There was a reason that these conversions were not carried out in wartime, and the cost should reflect that.

For the British ships, where there were other C-class and D-class (?) cruisers converted to a CLAA standard, that should also be an option, just not an inexpensive one. I am not sure if the British shipyards would have enough spare capacity to make such a conversion, or if the Americans would have diverted the effort away from their own conversions. These were cruisers that were older than the Omahas that the US did not take the effort to convert even when they were already in the shipyard for extensive repairs.