Iwo Jima story

[Footslogger]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04 ... at-90?lite

[dr.hal]

Thanks and not really off topic, indeed very much part of the topic!

[CV 2]

Love when writers dont research the story....

Quote:
After five days of intense fighting to capture the Japanese-held island, U.S. forces had managed to scale Mount Suribachi to hoist an American flag. Woods happened to have a 37-square-foot flag that he had found months before in a Pearl Harbor Navy depot.

[Canoerebel]

I think this is an error of grammar rather than fact. Assuming that Surabachi fell on the 5th day (I know it was early, but I don't recall whether it was day 3, day 5, whatever), the author meant to say: "After five days of intense fighting at the beginning of a month-long campaign to capture the Japanese island...." IE, I don't think the author intended to write that it took only five days to capture the entire island...I hope.

[castor troy]

we all know it took longer to actually take every last hole on that island but in fact, from a more general view on things, it really didn't even take a week to take the island. This also due to the employed Japanese strategy (not that defending the whole island would have been a better idea).

[Canoerebel]

The Allies crossed the island on day two, isolated Surabachi, and then took the high ground a few days later. But the campaign took much more than a week and the Japanese defended in depth rather on the beaches, so I don't think you're analysis is correct, Castor. The Allies were still slugging it out around the airfields in the central part of the island three weeks after D-Day - at places like Motoyama, the Meat Grinder, etc. Even after the Allies got the airfield operational, a Japanese attack killed a number of pilots in their tents (that's going from memory, but I think that's right). While Iwo's ultimate fate was decided on D-Day, there's no way anyone can claim "it really didn't even take a week to take the island."

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The Allies crossed the island on day two, isolated Surabachi, and then took the high ground a few days later. But the campaign took much more than a week and the Japanese defended in depth rather on the beaches, so I don't think you're analysis is correct, Castor. The Allies were still slugging it out around the airfields in the central part of the island three weeks after D-Day - at places like Motoyama, the Meat Grinder, etc. Even after the Allies got the airfield operational, a Japanese attack killed a number of pilots in their tents (that's going from memory, but I think that's right). While Iwo's ultimate fate was decided on D-Day, there's no way anyone can claim "it really didn't even take a week to take the island."

I think this is because I see it from a different point of view than you. You are American, I am Austrian. For an American, Iwo Jima is pretty much one of the bloodiest affairs the US Military had to go through in modern history, while it is for me something like I wouldn't really remember if it would have happened on the Eastern Front (where most of the modern history - of war - happened for someone being Austrian or German) because everything was just so much bigger. That's why you for example can remember about a couple of pilots being killed in their tents after thinking the airfield was secure already. Going from memory, the US lost something like 6 or 7000 dead on the island with three times as many injured, the Japanese lost pretty much all men - like they did in all other battles for islands, so in total some 20,000 men IIRC.

It took slightly over a month to kill the last Japanese soldier on the island but that was after fighting for three weeks for the one mountain on the island and it's surroundings with all the strongholds. The so called mountain Suribachi is often referred to as "highest elevation on the island" which better suits it as it is something like not even 200m high. This is like saying the Dutch got mountains too. IIRC it only took the first day and Mt. Suribachi was cut off from the rest of the island and some 50% of the terrain was secured within not even a week, 80% within the second week. Suribachi in the South and favourable terrain for the Japanese in the North of the island held until the island was called secure after a couple of days more than a month but most of the island was overrun in short order. It was bloody for the Marines and I don't want to belittle anything, it had to be horrible for the Marines and even more so for the Japanese. And you are of course correct that the island wasn't taken within a week as it took over a month in total and for a Marine the battle lasted until the last bullet was fired on the island but the big picture had the central and southern airfield secured within the first 7 or 8 days, the northern airfield wasn't even ready if I recall that right and secured within the second week.

Again, you are of course correct to say it didn't only last a week as it actually took more than a month and I should have better put it the way you did in saying the battle was decided on D-Day or even at the day the plannings for the invasion began.

[Canoerebel]

The Allies only had the narrow end of the pork chop-shaped island for quite awhile. The Japanese held tough on the "big end" of the pork chop, so I don't think the Allies had anything close to 50% at the end of week one or 80% at the end of week two.

I'm not comparing Iwo to the carnage at Stalingrad or Smolensk or Berlin or Normandy or Gettysburg on an army level, but given the small size of the island, the battle was probably as tough and as tight as any of those? Per capita (IE, number of soldiers per square yard or meter or whatever), I wonder how it compares to other battles? Probably pretty favorably.

[castor troy]

Was looking for a map that shows the progress on Iwo Jima and found the one below. Don't know if it is 100% accurate but it pretty much shows what I had in mind when I was once reading about the whole battle, sorry, don't even know the title of the book anymore as I never owned it.

Here it shows the South with Suribachi and the two airfields being secured within day 8, so not within a week as I claimed. I remember reading about a couple of thousand men of Seebee units starting their work on the airfields shortly after the landing and building a seaplane base somewhere near Suribachi, hence my inconsiderate statement about it only taking a week when the island was overrun (well knowing the last bullet wasn't fired until over a month after D-Day). When was the first B-29 doing the emergency landing on the Southern airfield, was that on day 3 already? This is what I meant with the big picture of the battle for the island, within a week the objective, means the two airfields were taken with Suribachi in the South too.

Going with the map below, I think I wasn't that wrong in saying 50% within the first week (it may have been 8 days) and 3/4 of the island within the second week.


edit: sorry, upload didn't work, trying again

[Alfred]

Hard to top Tarawa in terms of spilt blood per square metre.

Alfred

[Alfred]

Hard to top Tarawa in terms of spilt blood per square metre.

Alfred

[Canoerebel]

I've read a good bit on Iwo Jima, but I'll do some more. But here's a big reason I've always had the impression that the fighting was still very tough in weeks two and three of the battle.

A distant relative of mine landed on Iwo around February 27 (something like D Plus 7), part of a replacement draft. He was a private and joined a front line regiment. He was involved in heavy fighting around Motoyama, the Meat Grinder, and Turkey Knob. He was killed by a shrapnel wound to the neck on the night of March 6/7, somewhere around the Meat Grinder. So, this was something like D Plus 13 and was during the height of the battle - not during mop-up operations. I think the heat of battle lasted until around March 15 or so?

I'm not an expert on Iwo, so I'll have to refresh my memory on details.

[barkman44]

Iwo Jima A Legacy of Valor by Bill Ross is one of the best books on the subject.

[zuluhour]

Thank God the IJA did not think of IED's.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Hard to top Tarawa in terms of spilt blood per square metre.

Alfred

Tarawa was rough, but it saw only about 10% of the attacking troops become casualties (35,000 attacked 3,800 casualties). Iwo saw 33% become casualties, almost 10% of the attackers were killed (70,000 attacked 25,000 casualties).

Jim