Hawaian innacurate starting garrison

[DHRedge]

I been looking around a bit, and it seems that the Hawaiian garrison is overpopulated with USA troops.

I figure there are three reasons for this.

Convenience, it is easier for a player to have units at Pearl Harbor then to write specially code to simulate rapid USA mobilization during first 3 months of involvement in ww2.
Something to do, having some allied troops at pearl harbor and Hawaii gives some decisions that the allied player can make in the first 30 or so turns, and gives allied AI easier decisions earlier in scenario.

And the real reason.

Because all the designers came up with the same conclusion.

If there really are only a few thousand ground troops, and skeleton crews on moored Pacific fleet, then why wouldn't Japan's opening move be an amphibious landing?


Historical records show the Hawaiian defense force was only 2 months operational, and was a few battalions, and if there were more personnel on the navy ships there would have been more causalities. Added to that was the unwillingness to spend much on defenses during pre war isolation, and during that time most troops were on USA mainland. Also doctrine was only to protect one island, showing other troops in this sim also inaccurate.

So why does WITP-AE sim have more troops then historically accurate at Pearl Harbor, because if they did have accurate levels, everyone would say why doesn't Japan do an amphibious landing and naval bombardment and complete annialation of fleet by cutting off any attempt to sally out of port. And why would someone do a carrier attack against battleships, why not use coastal spotters to attack when CVs were at port?


It is my contention that the attack on Pearl Harbor was a British attack (legalized by the treaty where Britain got 50 war ships in exchange for some territories in the gulf of Mexico as the cover where the 50 ships were license to destroy USA navy vessels at Pearl Harbor, they were allowed to say they were attacking there own ships and silence anyone that might argue since congress signed that treaty).

It was to force Roosevelt and USA into war.

It is ridiculous to think that Japan that would not even attack Hong Kong or dutch east indies would want to start a war with the West, especially considering the vast amount of resources it was using to modernize its industry from Manchuria.

And if they did attack, it is absurd to say they would not have wanted a decisive victory in the form of complete victory where they invade Hawaii and put nationalist island political factions in control as a island liberation campaign. It is also absurd that they would not have naval bombarded Pearl Harbor, considering the entire coastal gun batteries could be blinded by a few fires in front of them on the beach by insurgents or early artillery considering they were unusually further away from shore then normal.

The entire premise that Japan attacked pearl harbor is so ridiculous, this game had to increase above historical numbers the Garrison levels in Hawaii to stop the obvious conclusion, although they don't even know they did that. If Japan had attacked Pearl Harbor they would have followed with an amphibious assault like they did everywhere else.

The obvious conclusion, the British attacked Pearl Harbor to force USA into war on there side.
The interesting part, the overpopulation of Hawaii of garrison forces supports my argument while it was done without knowing anything about this claim, making it credible support of this argument.

Anyways, I thinking of making up a scenario with much lower more accurate Hawaiian garrison numbers, and 10,000 IJN troops following up Air and Naval attacks on Pearl Harbor, it would have radically changed the outcome, since any fleets not at Pearl Harbor would have had to sail (if they had enough fuel to even get there) to west coast USA simply to refuel. It also would have made cutting off Australia far easier, and made the campaigns in those areas much different.

[BillBrown]

Can you provide me with some of what you are smoking?

[DHRedge]

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

Can you provide me with some of what you are smoking?

Since you reference smoke...

a better question is what was J.R.R. Tolkien smoking since he was knighted by British individuals and tells the same story.

In JRR Tolkien Lord of the rings, there were two events that were said to save Gondor, (the seat of western monarchies, as shown by claim to return to monarchy systems against the rise of communism and socialism in Europe)
The individuals said to be previous traitors were said to once again serve the empire (refering to USA revolutionary forces, tricked into fighting for England against Japan)
The lazy theiving hobbits dropped the ring into mount doom, destroying 'the ring of power' clearly indicating theft and intrigue as the method of victory.

Note also that Rohand had a shift from non war like leader (FDR, back to previous leader Teddy Roosevelt, as told by the rejoining of 'the riders of rohand' and of coarse the shire and bree is Europe, England and France.)
And once the ring of power was destroyed, by the infiltrators dropping it in mount doom (Hawaiian pearl harbor attack) the neutral eagles once again joined in the battle. There is more too it.

And although Tolkien story is also about Middle earth, the ancient configuration of land millions of years ago around the middle of the earth that is outside the scope of this disscussion, it is however relevant that distribution of rings.
One ring Leader
3 Rings royal advisors
7 rings theologians where they are stone cutters looking for jems (stone means spirit)
9 rings governors

Note the 5 rings that are the royal guard of the throne(Samurai book of five rings) are not included in Tolkien story because they did not surrender, as is indicated by there journey to Iskandar (long story)
Star Blazers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1Ug4sCxfdM

You may have to be able to read Moon script to understand this, where the moon is not the light but reflects the light.

as far as what I am smoking, it isn't pipe weed, more accurately it is the RE Forging of the One Ring, where once again the Nazguls can be heard in flight.
Because I don't think a war should be justified by a lie, nor is any similar action an action of justice.

Gold Dust Woman - Fleet Wood Mac (note the indication of deck construction material, and weapon selection by author of book of five rings)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGO9jNHH5Lw

Ring distribution continues.

Puff Puff
Smoke rings....


Robert Eastwood

[pnzrgnral]

This MUST be some attempt at a joke. Please, someone tell me this is a joke.

[DHRedge]

ORIGINAL: pnzrgnral

This MUST be some attempt at a joke. Please, someone tell me this is a joke.

That is your mind fleeing from reality, it may be to much for you to process.

[RangerJoe]

Someone let him out, he must be committed to do this . . .

An Imperial Japanese Naval pilot whose plan was damaged ended up on a small Hawaiian island. There occurred the only known instance of an Islander of Japanese ethnicity born on US territory helping the enemy. If I remember correctly, she was married to someone who was born in Japan.

Tolkien also used his WWI experiences in his books.

[pnzrgnral]

Thanks for confirming that this thread is a joke, DH!

[DHRedge]

ORIGINAL: pnzrgnral

This MUST be some attempt at a joke. Please, someone tell me this is a joke.

I am making sure they get caught in there unhonarable action.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daikokuten

In Japan, Daikokuten (大黒天), the god of great darkness or blackness, or the god of five cereals, is one of the Seven Lucky Gods (Fukujin). Daikokuten evolved from the Buddhist form of the Indian deity Shiva intertwined with the Shinto god Ōkuninushi.[1] The name is the Japanese equivalent of Mahākāla, the Hindu name for Shiva.[2]

The god enjoys an exalted position as a household deity in Japan. Daikoku's association with wealth and prosperity precipitated a custom known as fukunusubi, or "theft of fortune". This custom started with the belief that whoever stole divine figures was assured of good fortune if not caught in the act. The toshi-no-ichi (year-end market) held at Sensō-ji became the main venue of the sale and disposal of such images by the fortune-seekers. Many small stalls were opened where articles including images of Daikoku were sold on the eve of New Year celebrations.[3]


There are many others that were wrongly accused that are freed when the theft is reversed by evidence of there innocence, it is unfortunate when it takes many years with much suffering to correct a wrong, hence sometimes it takes Air Cap, Sweeps, and Boots on the ground, such as in this video where Ted makes an appearance at 4:16.

Tracy Chapman - Fast Car
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onkIDKqZemM

For instance you may not be familiar with the many uses of smear and show trials in more recent history where some are attempted to be accused without evidence using systems of media and junk science instead of due process and evidence. It is disturbing to some to have learned those actions are part of some of the actions of monarchies.

The best defense of democracy is to show what Monarchy, or status quo without transparency is willing to do to try and hold power, and what they will do while utilizing its power.



You would have to know about the Warden and the Cannibal from show I Land
You would have to know about framing of Mia in A-List
You would have to know about American Hangman
You would have to know origins of many other commentary and there sequence, it would take me years to bring you up to speed on most of this.

[DHRedge]

ORIGINAL: pnzrgnral

Thanks for confirming that this thread is a joke, DH!

I have made no such assertion, however I have heard that response before.

Planet Apes Trial
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGH3t1rbMW4

[BBfanboy]

Sorry, but your thesis on scheming leaders gives them too much credit. Both Churchill and Roosevelt underestimated Japan's bitterness at how it was being treated and were unaware that the Japanese thought themselves a superior race to the lazy western nations. Japanese leaders had seen enough newsreels of excessive alcohol consumption (speakeasys and the prohibition period), gangsters running everything, including some politicians, and bums riding the rails during the depression.

So far from devising plans to start a war, the US was trying to deter Japan by threat of its mighty fleet, and the Japanese were sure the west was rotten and ripe to fall. For his part, Churchill thought the presence of Prince of Wales and Repulse would add to the deterrence and keep Japan from trying to expand further. All the western powers were happy to let the Chinese absorb Japan's attention because they were busy enough trying to hold back the Nazis.

So, yes, Churchill knew that only US participation could guarantee victory over the Nazis, but there is no evidence he schemed in ways to make it happen.
Churchill and Roosevelt miscalculated, and so did Japan. Most wars start that way, IMO.

[DHRedge]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Sorry, but your thesis on scheming leaders gives them too much credit. Both Churchill and Roosevelt underestimated Japan's bitterness at how it was being treated and were unaware that the Japanese thought themselves a superior race to the lazy western nations. Japanese leaders had seen enough newsreels of excessive alcohol consumption (speakeasys and the prohibition period), gangsters running everything, including some politicians, and bums riding the rails during the depression.

So far from devising plans to start a war, the US was trying to deter Japan by threat of its mighty fleet, and the Japanese were sure the west was rotten and ripe to fall. For his part, Churchill thought the presence of Prince of Wales and Repulse would add to the deterrence and keep Japan from trying to expand further. All the western powers were happy to let the Chinese absorb Japan's attention because they were busy enough trying to hold back the Nazis.

So, yes, Churchill knew that only US participation could guarantee victory over the Nazis, but there is no evidence he schemed in ways to make it happen.
Churchill and Roosevelt miscalculated, and so did Japan. Most wars start that way, IMO.

I have read the official version also, now try and think about it.


And you have not been listening to the songs.

Fast Car - Tracy Chapman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onkIDKqZemM

"See what it means to be living"

https://www.yahoo.com/news/naruto-runne ... 55503.html



Robert Eastwood

[fcooke]

I also hope this is a joke....

Arizona seems to have been fully manned based on her death rate.

Nevada got under way in pretty good time so I don't think her crew was a skeleton version.

The Zero that crash landed and caused a little mini revolution is pretty well documented.

The mini subs that have been found do not appear to be X-craft (not that x-craft existed at that point).

I don't think any Swordfish have been found in the area.

The UK didn't have enough decks to pull off such nonsense.

FDR wanted in, but if there was such a massive subterfuge that some US politician or media would not have outed?

So - go ahead and make your revisionist scenario - that is what the editor is for. Don't forget to add in the USS Nimitz and her nest of F-14, A-6 and A-7s, Hawkeyes, etc.

I cannot remember for what version of the various PacWar games it was in, but one did have the Nimitz in it.....

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: fcooke


I cannot remember for what version of the various PacWar games it was in, but one did have the Nimitz in it.....

It was a bonus scenario on one of the Novastar 3'5" disks, that had utilities including Bear's Pacedit on it. $10 back in the day. Not an SSI product. I may still have the disk around here somewhere, but no longer have a machine with a disk drive that can read it.

I seem to remember the Bear (Dave Yeager) gave the Nimitz a speed of 45 knts, which with the exe of pacwar made it immune to IJN subs... and reflected the discouraging effect of the S-3s and SH-60s.

[rustysi]

WTF. I don't have time for this.

At any rate.

Can you provide me with some of what you are smoking?

Dude, stay away from that stuff. 'You can't handle the smoke.'[:D]

[DHRedge]

ORIGINAL: fcooke

I also hope this is a joke....

Hope and fear are two sides of the same coin, both based on a prediction of a future event, and often used to stop a person from doing what could actually create some future.

Arizona seems to have been fully manned based on her death rate.

Nevada got under way in pretty good time so I don't think her crew was a skeleton version.
Agreed, but only one Battleship, others probably were not maintaining three shifts at full compliment

The Zero that crash landed and caused a little mini revolution is pretty well documented.

Considering the first Zero reverse engineered for flight capabilities was found in Aleutians, and considering a good op would have one such individual, it is not a defining indicator.

The mini subs that have been found do not appear to be X-craft (not that x-craft existed at that point).
No answer to that one, however mini subs for surveillance would have been in many areas for many reasons.

I don't think any Swordfish have been found in the area.

Planes were copies of Japanese models at that time. The planes were assembled in China, Painted once put on deck, and crewed and trained by the actual action of acclaim the flying tiger's got credit for but not listed in history, and the raid used mostly Chinese pilots.

The UK didn't have enough decks to pull off such nonsense.

Planes were scuttled as they returned, and ordinance delivery is a bit exaggerated one carrier with double load of planes was all it was.

FDR wanted in, but if there was such a massive subterfuge that some US politician or media would not have outed?

It isn't that massive, why they actually had to do an attack, and most that signed the treaty giving permission did not know it was for that purpose, that was to be used after the fact to silence any politician that would have tried to talk saying they were in on it. A few selective reports, and by the time a few start asking questions, they are already rounding up japan Americans and steaming to war, making it difficult to reverse coarse.

So - go ahead and make your revisionist scenario - that is what the editor is for.

Technically it is not a revisionist scenario, it is a what if scenario to answer the question what would have happened if Japan had really attacked Pearl Harbor.

[DHRedge]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

WTF. I don't have time for this.

At any rate.

That is the usual result.
Air radar operator reports large anomaly approaching the harbor...
Officer of the deck ignores the report that does not fit with expected information that fits current mindset.

Inertia of idea exists to keep people some what stable, part of the mind that evaluates situations actually uses both sensory data and previous conclusions to calculate a result for that reason (similar to a heuristic on a decision boundary) Brain wiring includes a "stay the coarse" "maintain current thought" factor to it. So I do agree it would take time to process information that is so different then expected calculations based on previous conclusions. That is why good ops provide a first story and conclusion in the initial reporting.

The Japanese were also surprised when informed of the Pearl Harbor attack, it took them three days to actually process that they had been framed and then to actually attack USA with an air raid at Clark Field when they realized they would not win a media defense against a war declared on them. (also not modeled in this simulation)

[RangerJoe]

By the way, how did you escape Nurse Ratched?

[Jorge_Stanbury]

it was the Germans

[DHRedge]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe





By the way, how did you escape Nurse Ratched?

I did not fear my mother(Security State) finding out I like(and treat with respect) the ladies, of coarse being a dude why would I worry about that.

Fast Car - Tracy Chapman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onkIDKqZemM


Royal Geisha trained for war
Dragula Rob Zombie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqQuihD0hoI

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: DHRedge

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe





By the way, how did you escape Nurse Ratched?

I did not fear my mother(Security State) finding out I like(and treat with respect) the ladies, of coarse being a dude why would I worry about that.

Fast Car - Tracy Chapman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onkIDKqZemM


Royal Geisha trained for war
Dragula Rob Zombie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqQuihD0hoI

Look up Lorena Bobbitt . . .