Now I remember...

[Suribachi]

Now I remember why I had stopped playing this game a dozen or so years ago. Frustration and annoyance. A few examples below while playing as the allies on the Dec 7th surprise attack scenario. Jap computer player.
Allied destroyers and light cruisers, transports, cargos, etc., only require one jap torpedo hit to sink. Jap destroyers, transports, cargos, etc., regularly require two allied torpedoes and a couple of gun rounds for good luck to sink. Even with the US historically superior battle damage repair.
US carriers vs. Jap carriers - Lets attack the jap destroyers and light cruisers instead of their carriers. Jap planes primarily target the US carriers. In the event you are lucky enough to land a few bombs on the jap carriers, they limp off and disappear after the battle. The 10-mile smoke trail from the damaged jap carrier(s) is a non-factor. US search planes can't follow the smoke back to the jap fleet limping away! US carriers sink after only a couple of hits or if they are lucky enough to limp away, they are sunk during the following attack.
I snuck up on three jap carriers escorted by 4 jap destroyers. I had 7 heavy cruisers, 4 light cruisers and 9 destroyers. Ally ships mostly targeted the jap destroyers with only a couple of hits on two of the three carriers. Didn't even sink a jap destroyer! Are you kidding me! The jap carrier's guns had several hits on the allied task force even at a distance of 20,000 yards and they targeted only the heavy cruisers. Engagement was eventually called off and the jap carriers move a hex or two away and launch an airstrike which decimates the allied task force.
I had 5 subs in the immediate area/hex that the jap carrier task force was in and not one encountered the jap carriers.
These are just a few examples of obvious computer player favoritism that I have experienced playing the game. There are more examples, but I am too pissed off to bother writing them down here.
Done playing again...

[Cheesesteak]

Sorry to hear you are so frustrated with it. It's an old game and definitely has its quirks. Several parts of combat had to be abstracted, while others operate on deeply complex under the hood mechanics. From the sounds of it though, this just isn't the game for you. In the example of your surface forces attacking enemy DDs instead of CVs, do you expect the enemy surface forces to just watch your ships sail up, or to try and intervene? Rather than expect a perfect turn, this game does a fantastic job of forcing the player to manage vagueries and unpredictable outcomes day to day, control what you can control, and plan long term.

Best of luck finding the right game for you. I'm always on the lookout for new strategy games like this one.

[btd64]

Now I remember why I had stopped playing this game a dozen or so years ago. Frustration and annoyance. A few examples below while playing as the allies on the Dec 7th surprise attack scenario. Jap computer player.
Allied destroyers and light cruisers, transports, cargos, etc., only require one jap torpedo hit to sink. Jap destroyers, transports, cargos, etc., regularly require two allied torpedoes and a couple of gun rounds for good luck to sink. Even with the US historically superior battle damage repair.
US carriers vs. Jap carriers - Lets attack the jap destroyers and light cruisers instead of their carriers. Jap planes primarily target the US carriers. In the event you are lucky enough to land a few bombs on the jap carriers, they limp off and disappear after the battle. The 10-mile smoke trail from the damaged jap carrier(s) is a non-factor. US search planes can't follow the smoke back to the jap fleet limping away! US carriers sink after only a couple of hits or if they are lucky enough to limp away, they are sunk during the following attack.
I snuck up on three jap carriers escorted by 4 jap destroyers. I had 7 heavy cruisers, 4 light cruisers and 9 destroyers. Ally ships mostly targeted the jap destroyers with only a couple of hits on two of the three carriers. Didn't even sink a jap destroyer! Are you kidding me! The jap carrier's guns had several hits on the allied task force even at a distance of 20,000 yards and they targeted only the heavy cruisers. Engagement was eventually called off and the jap carriers move a hex or two away and launch an airstrike which decimates the allied task force.
I had 5 subs in the immediate area/hex that the jap carrier task force was in and not one encountered the jap carriers.
These are just a few examples of obvious computer player favoritism that I have experienced playing the game. There are more examples, but I am too pissed off to bother writing them down here.
Done playing again...

Maybe you should just play Battleship....GP

[Sardaukar]

You are just playing the game wrong.

I just comment about IJN/IJNAF torpedoes. Yes, they sank most smaller ships with one hit since they had lot more explosives compared to US torpedoes (which until 1943 had abysmal dud rate to add the misery with Mk 14, Mk 13 was quite abit better in that sense but still had problems).

E.g. Japanese aerial torpedo Type 91 323.6 kg (713 lbs) of explosives and speed of 42 knots in early war. In comparison, US Mk 13 aerial torpedo had 180 kg (400 lbs) of explosives and run 33.5 knots in early war.

There is quite a difference in performance (which was addressed by US when war went on).

[Admiral DadMan]

I feel your pain. Some things to consider:

Allied destroyers and light cruisers, transports, cargos, etc., only require one jap torpedo hit to sink. Jap destroyers, transports, cargos, etc., regularly require two allied torpedoes and a couple of gun rounds for good luck to sink. Even with the US historically superior battle damage repair.
-Consider that Japan's Type 93's warhead was twice as powerful as the USN's Mark 13

US carriers vs. Jap carriers - Lets attack the jap destroyers and light cruisers instead of their carriers. Jap planes primarily target the US carriers. In the event you are lucky enough to land a few bombs on the jap carriers, they limp off and disappear after the battle. The 10-mile smoke trail from the damaged jap carrier(s) is a non-factor. US search planes can't follow the smoke back to the jap fleet limping away! US carriers sink after only a couple of hits or if they are lucky enough to limp away, they are sunk during the following attack.
-The disparity of experience and Leader effects can affect prosecuting an attack all the way through a screen to execute an attack on a carrier. There a many early war examples where air attacks targeted the nearest "heavy".

I snuck up on three jap carriers escorted by 4 jap destroyers. I had 7 heavy cruisers, 4 light cruisers and 9 destroyers. Ally ships mostly targeted the jap destroyers with only a couple of hits on two of the three carriers. Didn't even sink a jap destroyer! Are you kidding me! The jap carrier's guns had several hits on the allied task force even at a distance of 20,000 yards and they targeted only the heavy cruisers. Engagement was eventually called off and the jap carriers move a hex or two away and launch an airstrike which decimates the allied task force.
-Again, you're dealing with a disparity in experience and tactics early war. The USN didn't "git guud" until late 1942, and that had a lot to do with radar and understanding how to employ it.

I had 5 subs in the immediate area/hex that the jap carrier task force was in and not one encountered the jap carriers.
-Not only did USN torpedoes suck for the first 21 months, their sub captains were ineffective until the captains and the tactics changed after the first year of the war.


My friend, you've got to learn to endure BOHICA for the first 9-12 months as the Allied player.

[btd64]

I feel your pain. Some things to consider:

Allied destroyers and light cruisers, transports, cargos, etc., only require one jap torpedo hit to sink. Jap destroyers, transports, cargos, etc., regularly require two allied torpedoes and a couple of gun rounds for good luck to sink. Even with the US historically superior battle damage repair.
-Consider that Japan's Type 93's warhead was twice as powerful as the USN's Mark 13

US carriers vs. Jap carriers - Lets attack the jap destroyers and light cruisers instead of their carriers. Jap planes primarily target the US carriers. In the event you are lucky enough to land a few bombs on the jap carriers, they limp off and disappear after the battle. The 10-mile smoke trail from the damaged jap carrier(s) is a non-factor. US search planes can't follow the smoke back to the jap fleet limping away! US carriers sink after only a couple of hits or if they are lucky enough to limp away, they are sunk during the following attack.
-The disparity of experience and Leader effects can affect prosecuting an attack all the way through a screen to execute an attack on a carrier. There a many early war examples where air attacks targeted the nearest "heavy".

I snuck up on three jap carriers escorted by 4 jap destroyers. I had 7 heavy cruisers, 4 light cruisers and 9 destroyers. Ally ships mostly targeted the jap destroyers with only a couple of hits on two of the three carriers. Didn't even sink a jap destroyer! Are you kidding me! The jap carrier's guns had several hits on the allied task force even at a distance of 20,000 yards and they targeted only the heavy cruisers. Engagement was eventually called off and the jap carriers move a hex or two away and launch an airstrike which decimates the allied task force.
-Again, you're dealing with a disparity in experience and tactics early war. The USN didn't "git guud" until late 1942, and that had a lot to do with radar and understanding how to employ it.

I had 5 subs in the immediate area/hex that the jap carrier task force was in and not one encountered the jap carriers.
-Not only did USN torpedoes suck for the first 21 months, their sub captains were ineffective until the captains and the tactics changed after the first year of the war.


My friend, you've got to learn to endure BOHICA for the first 9-12 months as the Allied player.

I couldn't agree with you more....GP

[btd64]

It's a game of patients.(SP)....GP

[Leandros]

I feel your pain - I am just coming over mine. What I didn't take serious enough in the start was the proficiency, or lack of it, in the two parties. This, I have found, is immensely important to succeed on any level, be it pilots or ship's/task force commanders. In other words, one has to work with that by picking crews and commanders. Also what training air units have gone through. I take that much more seriously now but I still have not come as far as ground commanders so I haven't much experience on that (or anything else, for that matter).

The physical condition of pilots also seems an important factor in air combat and/or bombing accuracy. If these matters are taken care of it can, I feel, even out much of the differences in airplane quality/capacity.

So, much of the Allies' weaknesses can be improved upon but it takes some time and care, as it did in real life. I like this game better and better as I get to know it better.

But, a terrible waste of time if I may say so!

Fred

[Arkham]

Yeah, I feel your pain and frustration playing allies in 1942. In my PBEM game right now in the Guadalcanal scenario I'm consistantly getting my 'stuff' pushed in turn after turn. My planes might get one or two hits on him, his planes regularly sink my APs and AKs with impunity. Its painful, frustrating and enraging sometimes that I can't make any headway.....


....but i have to keep telling myself that i can't fight the 'decisive battle' and that this is a game of time, numbers and patience.

Grinding wars of attrition take time, fortitude and patience.

Japan is great in the first 18 months of the war, but after you get over that hump look out. Yamamoto was right. The beast is enraged and is waking up, and when it's fully awake its a terrible thing to behold. Until then you just have to suck it up and take it. You lost 10 planes and he lost one? Consider that a victory. Why? Because you can replace your pilots but he cannot. That 90 experience guy pilot can't be replaced very easily.

I'll say it again: Grinding wars of attrition take time, fortitude and patience.

Japanese equipment early war is faster, better, more maneuverable and more plentiful. The Zero, the Betty, the Val? Better than what allies start with. Longer range, harder hitting. It's just better.....

......but they have hidden weaknesses. The Betty having long range? Because it's made out of paper and can fall apart pretty easily. The Zero has no armor and no self sealing tanks. Once your pilots get good those things will fall much easier. Those pilots are not replaceable easily. Your ships, your subs, your aircraft? In 1943 you'll be spitting out the same amount, by 1944 100 times the amount of better aircraft that the Japs can handle.

Grinding wars of attrition take time, fortitude and patience.

[edit] And for all you people telling OP to either quit or 'git good', have some patience, he's frustrated and annoyed. Op, stick with it, the game will get better for allies.

[Admiral DadMan]

"In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."

-Adm. Yamamoto Isoruku to Japanese cabinet minister Matsumoto Shigeharu and Japanese prime minister Konoe Fumimaro, as quoted in Eagle Against the Sun: The American War With Japan (1985) by Ronald Spector

[Suribachi]

I do love this game, play it almost every day (winter)... It does get me worked up though on occasion. Probably a good idea to step away every so often and take a break. Trying to overwhelmingly hurt and ultimately defeat the Japs can be quite stressful. I just need to persevere in the meantime while I wait for Oppenheimer.

Thank you for the info, especially the torpedo differences. I didn't realize the explosive load differences between the jap and US torpedoes. As far as the US torpedoes being duds in the beginning, how frustrating and potentially deadly that had to be for our sailors, flyers, navy. Shoulda strapped the engineers responsible for the "dud" issue to the torpedoes. I also didn't realize that the sub commanders were not that effective in the beginning. But they were brave.

I also did not take into account nearly enough, leadership qualities or the lack thereof and its effect on a task force's aggressiveness and its potential to sway a battle's outcome.

BOHICA - I had to look that one up! I was only familiar with FUBAR and SNAFU.

I'm only halfway through 42. Spent the majority of my time so far trying to get as many transports, cargo, oilers, tankers and surface combatants out of the impending onslaught and up to Ceylon and down to Australia, subs from Manila to Pearl Harbor and constructing forts, airfields and ports where it matters most right now. I also gotta hold Port Moresby at any cost!

Thanks again.

[Arkham]

Mid 42? Heck, the promised land is in sight! Just remember to take your best pilots out of operational squadrons and put them in training squadrons on the US and Indian mainlands, let them train up the next generation of zero hunters.

[RangerJoe]

Now I remember why I had stopped playing this game a dozen or so years ago. Frustration and annoyance. A few examples below while playing as the allies on the Dec 7th surprise attack scenario. Jap computer player.
Allied destroyers and light cruisers, transports, cargos, etc., only require one jap torpedo hit to sink. Jap destroyers, transports, cargos, etc., regularly require two allied torpedoes and a couple of gun rounds for good luck to sink. Even with the US historically superior battle damage repair.
US carriers vs. Jap carriers - Lets attack the jap destroyers and light cruisers instead of their carriers. Jap planes primarily target the US carriers. In the event you are lucky enough to land a few bombs on the jap carriers, they limp off and disappear after the battle. The 10-mile smoke trail from the damaged jap carrier(s) is a non-factor. US search planes can't follow the smoke back to the jap fleet limping away! US carriers sink after only a couple of hits or if they are lucky enough to limp away, they are sunk during the following attack.
I snuck up on three jap carriers escorted by 4 jap destroyers. I had 7 heavy cruisers, 4 light cruisers and 9 destroyers. Ally ships mostly targeted the jap destroyers with only a couple of hits on two of the three carriers. Didn't even sink a jap destroyer! Are you kidding me! The jap carrier's guns had several hits on the allied task force even at a distance of 20,000 yards and they targeted only the heavy cruisers. Engagement was eventually called off and the jap carriers move a hex or two away and launch an airstrike which decimates the allied task force.
I had 5 subs in the immediate area/hex that the jap carrier task force was in and not one encountered the jap carriers.
These are just a few examples of obvious computer player favoritism that I have experienced playing the game. There are more examples, but I am too pissed off to bother writing them down here.
Done playing again...

Read about the Battle of Leyte Gulf and what the escorts of Taffy 3 did to the Japanese center force . . .

Believe it or not, it was NOT Halsey's fault!

[stuman]

Perseverance and patience are so important as an Allied player in the early stages of the game.

[Sardaukar]

Well, there is very little that Allied can do during first 6 months apart from raids and such. Just have to "ride the storm" and buy time to set good defences and prepare for counter-attack later.

[Suribachi]

All good information and suggestions. Thanks

[Arkham]

And just for your benefit Suribachi, I'm playing a PBEM against someone else in the small Guadalcanal Scenario. I've been getting my tail kicked left and right, and have taken staggering shipping losses, including the CV enterprise, the CVE Long Island and a battleship. Tulagi was retaken, and IJA troops are landing on Lunga. I'm almost out of supply there, and I don't think I can hold on much longer......

.....until my advisary had just now a very very bad turn. His KB was basically Midway'ed, his offensive arm basically wiped out and one CVL for sure sunk and on CV likely sunk, others damaged. My morale went from being in the dumpster to being sky high right now. Things change in the war like that, and that's all it takes to turn the entire course of the war around.

[Tcao]

"US carriers vs. Jap carriers - Lets attack the jap destroyers and light cruisers instead of their carriers. Jap planes primarily target the US carriers."

Maybe they are under heavy attack, especially from Zero.
There are many account that during the war, pilots decide to attack the closest target (usually that is the screening DD and CL ) while under heavy pressure.

[Arkham]

"US carriers vs. Jap carriers - Lets attack the jap destroyers and light cruisers instead of their carriers. Jap planes primarily target the US carriers."

Maybe they are under heavy attack, especially from Zero.
There are many account that during the war, pilots decide to attack the closest target (usually that is the screening DD and CL ) while under heavy pressure.

And also many accounts, especially early in the war of:

"OMG See that huge thing? That's gotta be a carrier! I'm gonna attack it!"

"Nice job, hero, you just sank an oiler. The carrier is three miles over thatta way....."

[Sardaukar]

Even very experienced IJN pilots mistook AO Neosho as carrier and later sunk it in Coral Sea.