Biggest issue in WITPAE AE for me - pushover China

[Timotheus]

The thing which irks me the most.

It is not the UI from the 1980's, where you have to click on everything resulting in carpal tunnel.
It is not the obtuse engine, where a decade plus after the game came out people still discuss what is REALLY going on underneath all the results.


It is the fact that in every competitive game between 2 human players, China gets rolled by Japan. And relatively early too.


This is incredibly unrealistic, and China was an ulcer, similar (but worse) to what Spain was to Napoleonic France.

I played vs a computer script opponent (not AI) the full game as Japan, and I rolled China very easily, and ended up bombing their capital where all their units retreated to.



This game results in realistic or at least plausible (ok, semi-plausible - I invaded and took over India as Japan vs computer opponent) outcomes, but China being such a pushover is my main gripe with the game.

[RangerJoe]

China is not a pushover for every player.

[Platoonist]

It's not just a problem in WitP/AE. It seems like most computer games which feature the Sino-Japanese War usually result in Japan eventually crushing China because it's difficult to simulate the politics and expediency (for both sides) of the shaky undeclared truce which took place without a lot of house rules.

The campaigns the Japanese waged in China between 1938 and 1944 were foraging expeditions rather than battles. They had no greater strategic objective than to keep the countryside in terror, to sack the fields and towns, to keep the Chinese troops at the front off-balance, and to train their own green recruits under fire.

[Yaab]

China is really hard to defend.

However:
-the game allows Japan players to put all their 2E bombers on ground attack in frontline hexes. They are performing CAS missions normally reserved for light bombers, dive bombers and strafing fighters. Thus, Japan airpower in China is greater than in RL.

-several Allied frontline bases in China are in Clear terrain. Even if you give those bases more forts in stock GC scenarios, there is 50% chance those forts will show up as fort(+) modifiers in combat. Since terrain is Clear, defenders nver use terrain (+) modifier. So, combat begins, defender gets nothing from terrain, forts don't show up,and the Chinese cannot inflict any losses on Japanese. Changing those bases to Urban Light terrain would benefit the Allies.

-several Allied frontline bases are too small. They have arfields 1, which let them store just 8000 supplies. Park a couple of Chinese LCUs there, fight, and your supply usage will shoot up, leading to supply spoilage. By changing several bases to airfield 2, you can park more Chinese LCUs in their defense and avoid spoilage (airfield 2 supply limt is 17,000 supplies)

-Chinese assets (AT, arty, AA) are parked in Chungking at start. Surely, in RL, some of that stuff should be present Changsha or Chengchow at game's start.

-respawning Chinese units arrive with no arty, AT, mortar, MMG devices due to their abysmal replacement rates. Such units cannot bombard, thus depriving themselves of getting to potential 59 exp. Thus, the units are perennially locked at 40-45 exp levels, lest they gain more exp beating Japanese in assaults, which is highly unlikely. A small boost of mortar production would help here.

-contrary to what the manual say, adjacent LCUs are not spotted automatically. Thus, in China, you need to spread your units in lines to catch incoming LCUs, dluting you force concentration. Couple that with no recon aircraft and no movement pointers on Japanese stacks, and Allied players barely know what is going on. Adding some Chinese recons would help a bit.

[Chris21wen]

....

-contrary to what the manual say, adjacent LCUs are not spotted automatically. Thus, in China, you need to spread your units in lines to catch incoming LCUs, dluting you force concentration. Couple that with no recon aircraft and no movement pointers on Japanese stacks, and Allied players barely know what is going on. Adding some Chinese recons would help a bit.

Had to check but we have been there before. Ubless something has changed since I last looked at this DL do work. The problem is dirived from the linear nature of the game were the calculation and hence displaying of know units comes after the orders phase.

Any unit moving next to an enemy unit has it's DL set to 1. See p198 section 10.1.1.3

[szmike]

1. map stacking limits help with defense
2. one could be really annoying with Chinese, go around, cut supply lines with sacrificial units that respawn eventually, make Japanese chase your small detachments... they will always beat you, but they can't cover every hex... go guerilla on Japanese and it could sap/tax the players will... force them to spend extraordinary effort and time for little gains
3. defense outside bases in 3x terrain buys much time... so concentrate on double line 3x terrain, to hell with bases unless it's good terrain and position can't be bypassed easily

The game is not designed with Chinese theatre in mind, it never was, but it's miles better than original WitP

[RangerJoe]

2. one could be really annoying with Chinese, go around, cut supply lines with sacrificial units that respawn eventually, make Japanese chase your small detachments... they will always beat you, but they can't cover every hex... go guerilla on Japanese and it could sap/tax the players will... force them to spend extraordinary effort and time for little gains

That sounds like trying to kill cockroaches!

[szmike]

2. one could be really annoying with Chinese, go around, cut supply lines with sacrificial units that respawn eventually, make Japanese chase your small detachments... they will always beat you, but they can't cover every hex... go guerilla on Japanese and it could sap/tax the players will... force them to spend extraordinary effort and time for little gains

That sounds like trying to kill cockroaches!

Be that cockroach and win

[dr.hal]

The game is not designed with Chinese theatre in mind, it never was, but it's miles better than original WitP

I believe this statement to be pivotel. due to the focus of the game on naval combat and in particular naval air, players can often overlook the land game, indeed one scenario is "Quiet China" but this is misleading as nothing was further from the truth in the real war. The Allied player can be forgiven for a lack of concern on China due to the preponderance of naval toys presented, But the Japanese player has no such luxury. As has been said; "It's the economy stupid!" and Japan ignores China at its peril. Thus the Allies need to pay attention as well in order to hit that economy albeit indirectly. Yes the land game has some design flaws that hit BOTH sides, but it is still an essential element of the game. The Allied player needs to keep this in mind from day one. Some tricks? Some have been stated already. Don't fight in the open, don't get surrounded, build forts strategically keeping in mind they are static, defend Chungking indepeth, etc....but ignore China and it will be a LONG game.......

[BBfanboy]

Alfred had some sage advice on China, specific hexes to be fortified and defended in Northern China and mobile fighting elsewhere. I had it bookmarked but now my bookmark takes me to a 207 page AAR by WITPQS. I hope they didn't remove all of Alfred's posts. I haven't the time to search right now ...

[Yaab]

It just dawned on me that Japanese have another advantage in China.

As per manual p.220, each air group on ground attack has a % chance to add DL 1 to bombed units. Since Japanese use hordes of 2E/LBs on ground attack in frontline hexes in China, they constantly maintain high DL on their Chinese enemies. High DL makes Japanese perform better in LCU combat. You may not notice this because DL is not dispalyed in non-base hexes, and because players focus on number of disabled/destroyed devices during air raids. Under the hood though, high DL ups Japanese performance in land battles

[Cavalry Corp]

Not in my Mod "Empire" we are now in Sept 44 with hardly any gains for either side.

Cav

[GetAssista]

It is not pushover if you play it right, defending in depth, abandoning plains, using hard terrain and starting fortifying there from day 1. And yeah, release them cockroaches

[Falken]

Agree with Cavalry, it all depends on the mod. Using his, or Brian's BigB, and you get nowhere in China by either side.
Wineguy and I played a BigB game a few years ago, and we both just gave up on China as we both got nowhere.

Look at other MODs before deciding.

[Yaab]

Yes, many mods buffed China which is great. I reckon Timotheus was critcising the stock scenarios. Since the AI scripts' updates are made with the stock scenarios in mind, it is a pity those scenarios didn't effect any changes to the Chinese OOB, base sizes or unit dispositions. With the exception of the new bases added by AndyMac in scen007 and previous versions of scen001, you are experiencing China as it were in 2009 when WITP:AE was released.

[Cavalry Corp]

Agree with Cavalry, it all depends on the mod. Using his, or Brian's BigB, and you get nowhere in China by either side.
Wineguy and I played a BigB game a few years ago, and we both just gave up on China as we both got nowhere.

Look at other MODs before deciding.

In my mod it is possible for J to tidy up the map 1942 and you should. I have captured about 3 or 4 bases by mid 44.

As allies, I feel China could be on the offensive by late 44.

Cav