Quick question on Ops Modes

[awaw]

1. Engineers need to be in COMBAT mode to repair/build bases
2. Aviation support can service aircraft in REST (and all other) mode
3. HQ still provide command/combat in REST (and all other) mode
4. Naval Support still function normally (assist load/unload/repair/reload etc) in REST (and all other) mode

Are the above statements correct? If not, which one is invalid?

[LargeSlowTarget]

I think #1 is correct, for the rest I don't know. And personally I don't care - if I want a unit to do its job, I always put it in combat mode. If the units are still doing their jobs in other ops modes than combat, I would consider it a bug and using it a cheesy exploit.

[PaxMondo]

1. Engineers need to be in COMBAT mode to repair/build bases
2. Aviation support can service aircraft in REST (and all other) mode
3. HQ still provide command/combat in REST (and all other) mode
4. Naval Support still function normally (assist load/unload/repair/reload etc) in REST (and all other) mode

Are the above statements correct? If not, which one is invalid?

To the best of my knowledge, all 4 are correct. However, I also support LST's statement about considering it 'gamey' to do so, particularly for using the last 3 in STRAT mode. BUT, the dev's left it that way in the game, something they could easily have changed, so in a PBEM game it would have to be allowed. And I have no knowledge that that next upcoming patch will address it ....

[awaw]

Thanks LST & Pax for the quick responses. Not seeking to exploit these gaps, just seeking clarifications.

[PaxMondo]

Thanks LST & Pax for the quick responses. Not seeking to exploit these gaps, just seeking clarifications.

Totally understood. And note, gamey only against the AI. In a PBEM, it would either be allowed or covered in an HR. Truthfully though, I have never noticed it come up in an HR ....

[Sardaukar]

Note that units in Strat mode (and in Move mode but less) are very vulnerable to air attacks.

[Chris21wen]

1. Engineers need to be in COMBAT mode to repair/build bases
2. Aviation support can service aircraft in REST (and all other) mode
3. HQ still provide command/combat in REST (and all other) mode
4. Naval Support still function normally (assist load/unload/repair/reload etc) in REST (and all other) mode

Are the above statements correct? If not, which one is invalid?

They are all true. In the case on 2 & 4 they should not be able to provide support in any mode other than combat, if they are they are not at rest etc. The HQ is tricky, can an HQ ever be at rest?

[awaw]

Thanks LST & Pax for the quick responses. Not seeking to exploit these gaps, just seeking clarifications.

Totally understood. And note, gamey only against the AI. In a PBEM, it would either be allowed or covered in an HR. Truthfully though, I have never noticed it come up in an HR ....

TBH, I would not intentionally do this exploit, but this is something that is hard to enforce as a HR.
Afterall, we have so many units all over the place, and it is easy to oversee many. So I will categorize this as a "voluntary" action, akin to using Glen planes on subs.

Just my $0.02

[awaw]

1. Engineers need to be in COMBAT mode to repair/build bases
2. Aviation support can service aircraft in REST (and all other) mode
3. HQ still provide command/combat in REST (and all other) mode
4. Naval Support still function normally (assist load/unload/repair/reload etc) in REST (and all other) mode

Are the above statements correct? If not, which one is invalid?

They are all true. In the case on 2 & 4 they should not be able to provide support in any mode other than combat, if they are they are not at rest etc. The HQ is tricky, can an HQ ever be at rest?

Well, tons of HQs in rear areas for Japan, in early mid war timelines.....

[PaxMondo]

I think there is a solid argument that all 3, including the HQ's, should be in combat mode to effect their relevant actions. For HQ's, if their comms aren't deployed, then they can't really exercise command at all. So, any state other than combat would suggest that the comms are not deployed; hence no effect. That's my take.

But again, in PBEM, it would take a house rule to effect this and one that would be strictly honor code as there would be no way to enforce or even check. Against the AI, you would want to force yourself on this one as the default status for AI units is combat. You won't see AI units sitting in Strat or Move mode unless they are actively moving. As for Rest, I don't think the AI even knows that this mode exists; never found an AI unit in rest mode.

[Chris21wen]

.... As for Rest, I don't think the AI even knows that this mode exists; never found an AI unit in rest mode.

Just checked in my AI game against the Allies, the AI does use rest but where and when is questionable!

[Chris21wen]

As to HQ at rest. I do not wholely disagree but HQ are not just there for combat. A HQ would not simply lose comms because it is not combat ready, admin still needs to be done, all it's attached units need supplying and it needs to keep in contact with other HQ etc. You can say much the same about any ground unit but HQ are multifunctional whereas the other ground units are not.

[Sardaukar]

Not to mention HQ in move mode still has at least radio contact, usually.

To elaborate, no combat HQ moves as whole at once, but with stages. Rest will move only after part of the HQ has established Command & Control in new place. Thus, loss of communications normally, it just does not happen.

Strat mode might be different.

[PaxMondo]

Respectfully, I think you guys are applying modern command techniques and technology to the 40's. Especially early 40's, this was still wire and jeeps. Radio, sure, but encrypted radios? Nope. They had to use coded transmissions (think Navajo code talkers), and both jamming and triangulation were well in place. Coded transmissions means you can't loop everyone in on everything, just some preset items in your playbook. Nothing elaborate. Wire was king as it was secure ...but that takes time to get in place and it only covers the large formations. To get to the small units, that was face-to-face: jeeps and runners. So, wwii comms still have a lot more in common with 19th century than 21st century,


As for rest, yeah, I have about 20 units in rest mode out of the what +1000? units on the AI side. They are all units far from the front, more than 50% are HQ's. The AI doesn't use rest mode. It doesn't know what it is for. It doesn't know about upgrades. It barely understands replacements (as in they are all on) The fact that there are a very few units in rest only means to me that maybe the on board arrival of units has a random factor involved which would allow for Rest to chosen upon entry to the board. Something like that. Don't over think it.

[Sardaukar]

Well, the doctrine has been in place since modern armies emerged. Lets say from Franco-Prussian war 1870-71.

It basically is that HQ main does not move or cut communications until advance element has established C&C.

It took time of course, but it was not about "navajo code talkers" but encrypted morse and laying down wire.

People do not usually read doctrine books unless they have to. They are damn boring, but they are basically "how your army should fight" and breaking the doctrine is frown upon..unless you win.

Rommel was rightfully criticized often about being incommunicado with his own HQ, but that's why you need to have competent 2nd in command.

[PaxMondo]

Well, the doctrine has been in place since modern armies emerged. Lets say from Franco-Prussian war 1870-71.

It basically is that HQ main does not move or cut communications until advance element has established C&C....

Correct and agreed. BUT, to suggest that the advance unit has the same comm capability of the entire unit doesn't pass the common sense test. They have some, but not all the comm's; or maybe better to say for this era, not as fast. A lot of the wire is still being laid, but they could send a runner/jeep. And this would apply to "Move" function. And just like the fighting forces, they should carry a hefty penalty on their operations when conducting a move in this era because laying wire is SLOW. I would think that this should also apply to the support teams. Again though, it isn't coded, so nothing going to happen.


Strat is a much bigger move, like to a new front or new units coming into control. Strat is like a redeploy. In this mode, they should barely be functional. They are embarked on a train or barge or trucks or whatever. Again, look at how the combat troops are impacted, and I again I would argue that the support troops should be impact analogously. But again, it ain't coded, ain't likely to get coded, so it is what it is.

I will say this though. Engineers only work in combat mode. And of all of the activities that support teams provide, this is one of the biggest, and easily the most clear cut. All of the other tasks would have a % modifier, except most of the other support tasks don't easily deal with a % modifier as they are modeled (think torp support, air coordination, combat odds, etc.). i suspect that the devs looked at it, and said too much work for almost imperceptible outcome impact. AND if everyone has the same impact, then it all evens out.

[Yaab]

ad 4) Naval Support doesn't function at REST mode.

[awaw]

ad 4) Naval Support doesn't function at REST mode.

Thanks!

[HansBolter]

Regarding vulnerability of units to air attack in strat and move mode, air attack on units does little real damage in any kind of decent terrain. It's only in clear terrain that units become extremely vulnerable.

And as vulnerable as they are in the two modes mentioned, it's move move that has the greatest detrimental impact for the player as air attacks force them out of move mode, but does not do this to units in strat mode.

Strat mode should make them more vulnerable to damage, but again, does not seem to really do so in decent terrain. In game terms, being in strat mode while undergoing air attacks is always preferable to being in move mode while under going air attacks.

Doesn't make sense, but that's just the way it is.

[PaxMondo]

Doesn't make sense, but that's just the way it is.

Yep. I've always got a storyline for it (to keep my sanity), but the bottom line is just as you put it.