Under the Seas - Ale (J) vs Daniel (A)

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OnWargaming
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RE: Under the Seas - Ale (J) vs Daniel (A)

Post by OnWargaming »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Count up how much oil that you have on the mainland and how much that you need. Now do the same for the Home Islands. Do not forget to add in any captured oil in China even if it is quite a ways away from the refineries. If the refineries need the oil, then the oil will move instead of filling up the storage and quit producing oil.

You can also load oil from inland ports in China and stockpile it at Shanghai for movement to the Home Islands.

A very long overland movement!
Do you know if there is any waste of resources when they travel very far?
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RE: Under the Seas - Ale (J) vs Daniel (A)

Post by OnWargaming »

First turn sent!!!!!

I don't know you but I spent a lot of time planning and moving all stuff, I am having fun even if not a single turn has been played yet [:D]

Anyhow tonight I will watch Tora! Tora! Tora!, a relaxing movie about a diplomatic affair.


Banzai!




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RE: Under the Seas - Ale (J) vs Daniel (A)

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: OnWargaming

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Count up how much oil that you have on the mainland and how much that you need. Now do the same for the Home Islands. Do not forget to add in any captured oil in China even if it is quite a ways away from the refineries. If the refineries need the oil, then the oil will move instead of filling up the storage and quit producing oil.

You can also load oil from inland ports in China and stockpile it at Shanghai for movement to the Home Islands.

A very long overland movement!
Do you know if there is any waste of resources when they travel very far?

It does not matter about the wastage if they are not where they can be used.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing! :o

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
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RE: Under the Seas - Ale (J) vs Daniel (A)

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: OnWargaming

First turn sent!!!!!

I don't know you but I spent a lot of time planning and moving all stuff, I am having fun even if not a single turn has been played yet [:D]

Anyhow tonight I will watch Tora! Tora! Tora!, a relaxing movie about a diplomatic affair.


Banzai!




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Unlike TMTSNBM, Tora, Tora, Tora does not feature Zeros blowing up warships with their machine cannons, nor ex-RAF pilots shooting down multiple Japanese planes. [:)]
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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RE: Under the Seas - Ale (J) vs Daniel (A)

Post by mind_messing »

Some R&D thoughts from me.

IJA

Randy: I wouldn't bother with the Randy B - it's just not a worthwhile improvement over the Nick. The Randy A is a much better option (as all your fighter squadrons can convert vs a small number of FB squadrons to the Randy B).

I like the Oscar, glad to see you're planning on using it for all it's worth.

IJA fighters feel oversaturated. Oscar, Tony, Frank, the 83, Tojo, and Randy A. I feel you could cut one (and maybe two - suggest Randy A and Tojo as they're less flexible than the other aircraft).

Strongly suggest emphasis on the Peggy (T) model rather than the Ia. Having an IJA aircraft for torpedo attacks is a big plus in the late game.

Similarly, no Lily dive bomber. Opinion is divided on this, but I like it.

IJN

Good choice on the Sam, makes better sense to me than the late war Zero models.

I'd pick the Jack or the George, but not both. I tend to favour the George.

NF's look fine, but all the choices are bad.

With the IJN level bombers, I'd solely build the Nell M3 model. Not much difference between that and the Betty, but it has fantastic range. You need the Frances to have a reasonable aircraft in this role. Just note, however, that the P1Y1 model has a service rating of 4, and is an absolute nightmare to use in anything close to combat conditions. Suggest emphasis on the Y2 model, which has a much more helpful service rating of 2.

I think you need a little more on the Judy. The Val is bad, and you need rid of it, and the D4Y4 is a key airframe for that 800kg bomb (which gives you the ability to really hurt battleships without using torpedoes).

With the torpedo bombers, the Jill is fine, but the Grace should be the real goal. A combined dive/torpedo bomber is a massive boon to the IJN.

The factories on the Lorna are just a waste, it's a pretty useless airframe and the G3M3 Nell can do it better.

Recon-wise, don't bother with the Irving. Nothing it can do that the Dinah already can't. Focus on the Myrt instead, that thing has crazy long range.

No sense in researching the Jake B model before it's natural arrival time. The only real difference between the two models is the radar set, which doesn't become active until mid-44. Not worth the effort.

Similarly, I wouldn't bother researching the IJN transports. You get decent airlift capacity as Japan from already existing models, so you should be fine to wait for these.
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RE: Under the Seas - Ale (J) vs Daniel (A)

Post by OnWargaming »

I am taken few days off from WitP after the first turn click marathon.

A couple of Field of Glory Medieval PBEM games and a Saga game (miniatures) at my local club, but now is time to come back in the Pacific!

Well, not immediately at least, we agreed to start on 7th December, 80 years after the historical date, we cannot pass on this one [:)]

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RE: Under the Seas - Ale (J) vs Daniel (A)

Post by OnWargaming »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Some R&D thoughts from me.

...


Thank you very much for your time spent on checking my R&D, much appreciated!

IJA
Randy B: I thought that its superior armament (GV19) and 2x250kg bombs could be useful

Fighters: you are right but it was intentional, I don't want a specific aircraft that will arrive too early [:)]

Peggy (T): how the pilots can be trained?

LiLy: the main reason is its low payload, how do you use this bomber?

IJN
Bombers: Frances is the choice, Betty only until its arrive.
Nell will be produced for all the time, beside long range base attack I want to use it on Naval Search as well.

Judy: ok, I think I can add another 1x30

Grace: uhm, therefore SR2 and no radar is going to be better anyway?

Lorna: my thinking was to use it on ASW duty, radar and MAD are not a good combo?

Irving Recon: roger

Jake: my bad, I totally forgot the radar activation! I have to check the radar activations on the editor.

Emily Transport: yes but I can keep supplied almost all my Pacific bases [:D]
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RE: Under the Seas - Ale (J) vs Daniel (A)

Post by mind_messing »

Thank you very much for your time spent on checking my R&D, much appreciated!

If you've not realised it already, IJ players have a thing for R&D plans. Everyone has their own particular take, and everyone else does something slightly wrong or sub-optimal as a result.
Randy B: I thought that its superior armament (GV19) and 2x250kg bombs could be useful

The devil is in the details.

The Randy B carries the Ho-401 cannon, so while it does have the stronger gun value, the Ho-401 has an accuracy rating of 4 (compared with the typical 20-30 range of value for typical aircraft weapons). That means it's pretty unlikely to hit in air to air combat.

The Nick gets one 20mm cannon, 2 MG's and 2x250kg bombs, so you're effectively spending the R&D effort for a slight performance improvement on the Nick and an extra 20mm cannon. Not worth it IMO.
Peggy (T): how the pilots can be trained?

You can train your IJA pilots in NavB the same way as you do for the IJA. You can't train NavT until the Peggy arrives, so that can be a challenge (and the more reason to move this plane forward ASAP).

IMO it's an essential plane for IJ late-war, as the IJN doesn't have the depth to be able to keep training pilots for naval attack missions (be it for carrier squadrons or land squadrons) alone as the war ramps up in intensity. The IJA (and the Peggy T) is needed to be able to share the load between the two organisations.

Generally speaking, you also need the torpedoes. Given Allied damage control, it takes a few 250kg bombs to cause problems. Much less torpedoes are needed.
LiLy: the main reason is its low payload, how do you use this bomber?

Dedicated IJA anti-shipping platform up until the Peggy T arrives. It's a dive bomber, and it's IJA. It's an absolute steal for what it is.

The low payload is a bit of a disadvantage, but the 100kg bombs will do fine on anything that's smaller than a CA. I've had particular success with them as CVE killers, and they do a good job dealing with Fletcher squadrons as the war progresses.
Bombers: Frances is the choice, Betty only until its arrive.
Nell will be produced for all the time, beside long range base attack I want to use it on Naval Search as well.

I'd just cut the Betty out completely for the sake of it, but that's just me.
Grace: uhm, therefore SR2 and no radar is going to be better anyway?

Yes.

SR 2 isn't all that punishing in my experience, especially not for carrier based aircraft. It's only SR3 and (particularly) SR4 where I feel it bite.

The N-6 radar on the Jill doesn't arrive until 10/44, so the Jill is radar-less until that point.

Grace has 50km/h on the Jill. This is absolutely critical late-war, when overcoming the Allied radar advantage is vital to get good returns. Aircraft speed is an important input into getting the advantage.

Grace is dual purpose, in that it is a dive-bomber with torpedo capability. If you're in a position where a base or carrier has no torpedoes, the Grace is able to effectively attack ships. That's a pretty big consideration, especially in carrier engagements - if for whatever reason the Grace's don't take torpedoes, they'll still be able to attack effectively with bombs. With 2x250kg bombs, that's a reasonable payload. The Jill would be forced to level bomb with reduced accuracy, whereas the Grace can do dive bombing with much better accuracy.

It's an amazing option for the IJN for the flexibility it affords. No other airframe in the IJN arsenal can move between land-based and carrier-based operations, as well as torpedo and dive bombing attack profiles with as much flexibility.
Lorna: my thinking was to use it on ASW duty, radar and MAD are not a good combo?

Miserable range, with ASW patrols the range of an aircraft is cut in half. That gives you 3 hexes of ASW search, which is pretty poor.

Japan doesn't get the MAD until 6/44, and the FM-3 radar on the Lorna doesn't arrive until 6/45. By that point you won't be too fussed about ASW efforts.

Best option is to ditch that, and build extra G3M3. The extra range will be better for you, and they'll get the H-6 radar in 6/44 anyhow.
Jake: my bad, I totally forgot the radar activation! I have to check the radar activations on the editor.

See above comments regarding other radar activation dates. Like I said, the devil is in the details, and once understood makes a lot of otherwise attractive airframes seem much less attractive.
Kami: Ki-119 (2x30)

Minor point, but I'd go for the 115 over the 119. The 115 is effectively the same plane, but arrives 6 months earlier and being a level bomber (the 119 is a fighter bomber) more squadrons can use it. Not worth using the 119 in a fighter bomber role, as the Nick can do it all anyways.

I don't think the dedicated kamikaze planes are worth it. In my experience, you're better using older existing models, as they offer more flexibility via their additional range, and (more importantly) you can build deeper pools. Compare, for example, the Helen IIb vs the Ki-115, or the Frances vs the Toka.



For some extra homework, also worth consideration is the:

J7W1 Shinden as the only realistic late-war option for the IJN land-based fighter cadre.

Ki-74 Patsy as a late-war IJA long-range bomber, perfect for counter-raids on B-29 airbases and long-range kamikaze strikes.

Ki-94 as the IJA's response to the Thunderbolt.
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RE: Under the Seas - Ale (J) vs Daniel (A)

Post by OnWargaming »

Lot of inputs again, many thanks!

In my first turn I don't have changed my R&D factories yet (I want to check how many supplies I have already spent and no repairs until 10K+ stock anyway).
Moreover if I am right, it is possible to repair only one factory per turn and I prefer that the actual production goes first.

You use some aircraft in a different role respect my observations (and they are theorical only given that I still no have enough experience yet) and the fixed radar activation dates really change some of my initial assumptions.
Luckily I can modify my initial plan without any waste of supplies, I will post the updated one.
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RE: Under the Seas - Ale (J) vs Daniel (A)

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: OnWargaming

Lot of inputs again, many thanks!

In my first turn I don't have changed my R&D factories yet (I want to check how many supplies I have already spent and no repairs until 10K+ stock anyway).
Moreover if I am right, it is possible to repair only one factory per turn and I prefer that the actual production goes first.

You use some aircraft in a different role respect my observations (and they are theorical only given that I still no have enough experience yet) and the fixed radar activation dates really change some of my initial assumptions.
Luckily I can modify my initial plan without any waste of supplies, I will post the updated one.

You can repair only one point per factory per turn but you can repair as many different factories that you want as long as the supplies are there. Yes, you need 10k+ in supplies before any repairs are made.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing! :o

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
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RE: Under the Seas - Ale (J) vs Daniel (A)

Post by OnWargaming »

Thanks for correcting me!
I am glad to have started this AAR, I am learning a lot because I can immediately apply what I read in a more meaningful way.
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RE: Under the Seas - Ale (J) vs Daniel (A)

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: OnWargaming

Lot of inputs again, many thanks!

...

You use some aircraft in a different role respect my observations (and they are theorical only given that I still no have enough experience yet) and the fixed radar activation dates really change some of my initial assumptions.
Luckily I can modify my initial plan without any waste of supplies, I will post the updated one.

It's also worth spending some time to actually understand the relative value of the radar sets that Japan has access to as well.

The MAD device is relatively worthless in comparison to "real" radars. The H-6 and N-6 radars are your bread and butter, and they're found in IJN airframes only.

Worth doing a comparison between the G3M3 (with the H-6 radar) and the Lorna (with the FM-3 radar). The the Nell, you can have a ASW plane with an operational range of 26 hexes, the becomes radar equipped in 6/44.

With the Lorna, you've a plane that's limited to 6 hexes and a radar set that actives in 10/45. I wouldn't consider MAD as worth all that much, as that's effectively all it has going for it (and even then you can use the Helen Ia for an easier route to that - and IJA too!).



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RE: Under the Seas - Ale (J) vs Daniel (A)

Post by OnWargaming »

And we have the first turn!
Daniel sent me the file but I will run it tomorrow night, exactly 80 years after the historical event!

I put all the message settings to max delay (4.5), I don't know how many time will require to watch the whole turn but it will be like a TV series [:D]



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RE: Under the Seas - Ale (J) vs Daniel (A)

Post by RangerJoe »

It will take awhile to run the turn. You learn to read quickly but if English is not your native language then slower may be better for you, at least at first.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing! :o

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
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First turn!

Post by OnWargaming »

Finally we start our game, I think it is worthy to watch the replay because you can understand a few things about the game.


Pearl Harbour
My TBs were loaded with more 800kg bombs than torpedoes, not sure why but they made their job anyway.
All midgets got lost in the harbour.

Morning Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 180,107

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 118 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 44 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 88
B5N2 Kate x 116
D3A1 Val x 135

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 11 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 5 destroyed by flak
D3A1 Val: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-36A Mohawk: 1 destroyed, 22 damaged
P-36A Mohawk: 1 destroyed on ground
B-17E Fortress: 22 damaged
B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed on ground
PBY-5 Catalina: 88 damaged
PBY-5 Catalina: 10 destroyed on ground
B-18A Bolo: 35 damaged
B-18A Bolo: 4 destroyed on ground
A-20A Havoc: 10 damaged
A-20A Havoc: 1 destroyed on ground
B-17D Fortress: 62 damaged
B-17D Fortress: 2 destroyed on ground
SBD-1 Dauntless: 20 damaged
SBD-1 Dauntless: 5 destroyed on ground
P-40B Warhawk: 56 damaged
P-40B Warhawk: 6 destroyed on ground
O-47A: 9 damaged
F4F-3 Wildcat: 5 damaged
F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed on ground
C-33: 1 damaged
C-33: 1 destroyed on ground
R3D-2: 9 damaged
OS2U-3 Kingfisher: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB California, Bomb hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Arizona, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
DM Montgomery, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Maryland, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
CL Raleigh, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Henley, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Downes, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CL Helena, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
AR Medusa, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Allied ground losses:
6 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 27
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 86
Port hits 16


These guys made a private run, classy.

Afternoon Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 180,107

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 105 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 44 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 70
B5N2 Kate x 27

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 8 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Schley, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
BB California, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Allied ground losses:
6 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Port hits 5


BB Arizona and 3 DD sunk, I heard another ship that probably sunk, maybe the BBs with heavy fires and damage have a chance to meet the seabed. 18 Catalina destroyed and this is a nice plus.
My losses: 11 Kates and 1 Val.
Given that I am not playing for the autovictory and this old BBs are not my main concern I will leave PH to protect my invasion TFs.
The good news to have lot of torpedoes still available is that I don't need to rearm my KB immediately.


China
Pengpu and Tsingsing captured after a quick battle.
Chinese troops converting to Ichang and Synyang (center), Kweisui and Paotow (NE), I will follow the suggestions received and I will try to hold Synyang only.

Hong Kong
3 Mabel sunk a DD

Philippines
Vigan captured by paratroopers.
Clark Field under heavy attack, the airfield should be out for a while.

Malaya
We land at Kota Bharu, a Dutch SS launched a torpedo but luckly miss the target.
Strong CAP over Singapore and we lost 11 Nell/Betty, the airfield should be out of service for a couple of days at least.


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RE: First turn!

Post by RangerJoe »

To see how many BBs sank, check on the number of float planes destroyed on the ground. They carry 2 of them.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing! :o

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
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RE: First turn!

Post by Nomad »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

To see how many BBs sank, check on the number of float planes destroyed on the ground. They carry 2 of them.

His screenshot shows 4 Kingfishers destroyed on the field. Sounds like 2 BBs went down on this turn. He might see more in the next day or two if fires on the unsunk BBs rage on.
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RE: First turn!

Post by OnWargaming »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

To see how many BBs sank, check on the number of float planes destroyed on the ground. They carry 2 of them.

Thanks, time to learn wich FP are used for the main Allied ships then [:D]
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RE: First turn!

Post by OnWargaming »

ORIGINAL: Nomad

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

To see how many BBs sank, check on the number of float planes destroyed on the ground. They carry 2 of them.

His screenshot shows 4 Kingfishers destroyed on the field. Sounds like 2 BBs went down on this turn. He might see more in the next day or two if fires on the unsunk BBs rage on.


Interesting, to prevent this free intel he can transfer his FP from the badly damaged ship.
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RE: First turn!

Post by Nomad »

ORIGINAL: OnWargaming

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

To see how many BBs sank, check on the number of float planes destroyed on the ground. They carry 2 of them.

Thanks, time to learn wich FP are used for the main Allied ships then [:D]

USN BBs carry OS2U-3 Kingfishers, USN CAs and CLs carry SOC-1 Seagulls
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