Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (Allies)

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: bklooste

ORIGINAL: castor troy



You are aware of how many Allied fighters could be on Cap over Pearl? If he gets a nice die roll with his Cap rates and you don´t have a hundred Zeroes for escort (which you probably won´t have) then this could completely trash KB.

Whats better fighting now while you have the advantage and they are still in P40, P39s and Buffalos or wait for those pilots to get Corsairs ? KB should be expended not nursed. Also those battle wagons make fierce AA platforms later they need to go down.

Banzai! .

I can´t see a reason why to throw away KB to fight over a hundred P-40 in the air (if his opponent isn´t sleeping). And I don´t see a reason why he should fight Corsairs later on with KB. One of the errors many Japanese players make in PBEM is taking on massive land bases or getting within Allied advanced short ranged fighters instead of staying away.

I can guarantee you, if he still has the starting fighter squadrons (plus probably some reinforcements) on Hawai and he hasn´t forgot to set them on Cap then 100+ P-40 will eat the perhaps not combined KB strike on the port with some 40-50 Zeroes alive, even if the Zeroes have a higher exp. The P-40 is doing ok and the Zeroes won´t take them all out, so dozens of bombers will be shot down. IMO, attacking THE major Allied base sometime after Dec 41 is something I would just love as an Allied.

KB should take on Allied carriers, away from Allied LBA but within Japanese LBA. This has always been like this and I can guarantee you that this is the way to go. I may sound arrogant perhaps but that´s the way I established a 4:1 kill rate of IJN vs USN carriers in all my PBEMs - no not just in the first 6 months of the war. Attacking major bases with KB is throwing away the pilots.

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: stuman

ORIGINAL: Menser

I've been playing Ironman and, if I remember right, all the fortress units outside of a basehex start at level 3 ..... since in a basehex you need 20k supplies to go above six.... I think that most of them by this time are level 6 and no higher. ..... unless they are in a well supplied basehex. By a Garrison Flag I meant a Static unit.

Thx. I just could not remember what levels all the Russian forts were. I think some border forts start at 9, but I am not sure. I will look it up later.

one thing to consider is the fact that you couldn´t reduce forts of units outside bases in WITP. If it wasn´t changed than you still can´t in AE. I haven´t checked yet.

I hadn't thought of that. For what it is worth I checked in my game against the AI, and in March of '42 most of the Russian stand-alone forts are in the 4 range. Same with most of the CD units in cities. Vlad. is a 9 .

[Fishbed]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: bklooste

ORIGINAL: castor troy



You are aware of how many Allied fighters could be on Cap over Pearl? If he gets a nice die roll with his Cap rates and you don´t have a hundred Zeroes for escort (which you probably won´t have) then this could completely trash KB.

Whats better fighting now while you have the advantage and they are still in P40, P39s and Buffalos or wait for those pilots to get Corsairs ? KB should be expended not nursed. Also those battle wagons make fierce AA platforms later they need to go down.

Banzai! .

I can´t see a reason why to throw away KB to fight over a hundred P-40 in the air (if his opponent isn´t sleeping). And I don´t see a reason why he should fight Corsairs later on with KB. One of the errors many Japanese players make in PBEM is taking on massive land bases or getting within Allied advanced short ranged fighters instead of staying away.

I can guarantee you, if he still has the starting fighter squadrons (plus probably some reinforcements) on Hawai and he hasn´t forgot to set them on Cap then 100+ P-40 will eat the perhaps not combined KB strike on the port with some 40-50 Zeroes alive, even if the Zeroes have a higher exp. The P-40 is doing ok and the Zeroes won´t take them all out, so dozens of bombers will be shot down. IMO, attacking THE major Allied base sometime after Dec 41 is something I would just love as an Allied.

KB should take on Allied carriers, away from Allied LBA but within Japanese LBA. This has always been like this and I can guarantee you that this is the way to go. I may sound arrogant perhaps but that´s the way I established a 4:1 kill rate of IJN vs USN carriers in all my PBEMs - no not just in the first 6 months of the war. Attacking major bases with KB is throwing away the pilots.

Not to mention the need to keep a CAP cover over the KB against maybe a hundred bombers. You need some intel first I guess, but then you have to recon several bases at the same time not to raise suspicion I guess...

But like Castor, I don't see that succeeding without a big bunch of luck. I'd rather go for the West Coast if you have some fuel left. You have to strike him wherever he's not waiting for you, and Pearl sounds like a way to obvious objective to me.

[seydlitz_slith]

Stu: the fortification level was 3 for the hex. I knocked that out very early. The real problem was the static unit there. Since it could not retreat I had to kill every man and pillbox. It was ridiculous to have three weeks of odds of 34 to one and higher every turn, but it honestly took right at a month to chew up the static unit.

Others: The possibility of strong CAP at Pearl is the strongest deterrent that I see right now. I plan to test it by flying a port attack using one or two Glens from the subs to see what kind of CAP is there. If the reaction is not strong then it may be worth trying. Otherwise Seattle looks pretty good. Plenty of time to decide. Very good conversation regarding this and also how far I should extend my perimeter. I am favoring the interior lines approach with only very small units garrisoning points south of Tulagi.

[bklooste]

Note for Pearl Harbour you wont be loosing KB you can replace your losses . You could do a turn 1 sweep with A6M2 and Vals on the air field. If ok then come in with the Kates , the kates are the most valueable.

I would not sweep with 2 glens ,1 at most it is somethign that may get him to set units on Cap.

A better option maybe to land at Midway have your forces hover nearbye and see if you can draw some units of his. Once you have Midway you can scout Pearl with your Mavis's.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Note for Pearl Harbour you wont be loosing KB you can replace your losses . You could do a turn 1 sweep with A6M2 and Vals on the air field. If ok then come in with the Kates , the kates are the most valueable.

I would not sweep with 2 glens ,1 at most it is somethign that may get him to set units on Cap.

A better option maybe to land at Midway have your forces hover nearbye and see if you can draw some units of his. Once you have Midway you can scout Pearl with your Mavis's.

he won´t lose KB if there are enough P-40 int the air? Well, he won´t lose KB probably but he loses the 80 exp pilots, no matter if "only" the Zero pilots. And he can NOT replace these losses. In WITP you could by bombing empty bases and getting 99 exp fighter pilots by doing this. In AE you at BEST will get 70 exp fighter pilots doing training for half a year. And a 70 exp pilot is light years away from a 80 exp pilot.

I can only repeat myself, if an Allied PBEM player isn´t completely asleep then attacking a major Allied base after the first couple of months is a major Japanese error. This has been proven so often in WITP that it´s pathetic to repeat it anyway but in AE this is a hundred times truer due to the fact that you can NOT replace those pilots with equal quality.

My advice for every Japanese PBEM player: stay away from Allied LBA, there is no reason to wreck your KB daitais. Who cares about two or perhaps three BBs sunk at Pearl now (and I seriously doubt KB would achieve that anyway at this date), the Allies get DOZENS of BBs. Keep KB intact, everything else is throwing away your most dangerous weapon.

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Note for Pearl Harbour you wont be loosing KB you can replace your losses . You could do a turn 1 sweep with A6M2 and Vals on the air field. If ok then come in with the Kates , the kates are the most valueable.

KB Pilots are the second most precious asset for a Japanese player. If I understand anything about this game, the key for doing well at sea is to expoit your initial edge in carrier pilot experience to keep this edge last as long as possible (ideally into 1944) by delivering defeats to Allied CV force and not allowing Midway-scenario of fighting near a major Allied base to happen. And not expending carrier pilots on massively defended targets.

[bklooste]

Your all asuming your allied openents risks their carriers , most i see just horde them in NZ till 43 or sit under LBA and just use them somewhere else when KB shows up. Any allied player that uses his carriers without recon or aggresively is a fool. A strike on Pearl ( Or Aukland) may net you a carrier .

Also your not going to loose all your zeros . 80 Zeroes sweeping vs 100 cap will prob be 5 zeroes lost for maybe 7-10 of his , yes your Vals will cop a hammering though .

[offenseman]

I can see several bad scenarios that might actually be best case scenarios for KB if it goes after PH at this stage.  A lot of risk for little possible gain.

If I were inclined to do some thing bold, I'd take KB with a few oilers and do an end run between PH and SF.  Try to catch some shipping or naval forces heading west.  Maybe catch a convoy in or outgoing. Perhaps even a CV heading west to merge with others.  Depending on how much fuel you take, you could keep going south and head back west when out of range of Pearl's LRA to harass the shipping on the southern route. Worst case you use some fuel, best case you sink a bunch of ships, some of which are loaded with high VP troops. 

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Your all asuming your allied openents risks their carriers , most i see just horde them in NZ till 43 or sit under LBA and just use them somewhere else when KB shows up. Any allied player that uses his carriers without recon or aggresively is a fool. A strike on Pearl ( Or Aukland) may net you a carrier .

Also your not going to loose all your zeros . 80 Zeroes sweeping vs 100 cap will prob be 5 zeroes lost for maybe 7-10 of his , yes your Vals will cop a hammering though .

I stand by what I´ve said, if there´s a decent Cap then it´s the worst idea you can come up with. Not much more to point out, I´ve just copied out a passage from String´s recently started AAR vs Andy Mac:

PH: First strike went in pretty well, My guess is that we've managed to sink a BB or two. I decided to stay for a second day, and it was pretty painful. The allied managed to put up a decent cap, and although it was mauled by the escort, the cap managed to break through to the bombers and maul them in return. As a result the KB bomber groups are pretty depleted, some below 50% strenght. Not what a japanese player would like to see on turn 2.

what can I say more? Attacking PH months after 7 Dec is a nogo IMO for every experienced IJN player if he´s playing against an Allied player who knows what to do.

[vlcz]

If timed correctly (I would suggest scoping with glens) a visit from a quick surface TF can yield much better results, take in account that  TFs (even docked)  are not helped by the CD defense and having a defense surface TF it is easily neglected.

[Athius]

So, how is the war going?

[seydlitz_slith]

I had the family out of town visiting family for the holidays and just returned this morning. During the interim we processed only two noneventful turns since I did not have good internet access. We should be resuming normal turn processing this week. I may have a delay before posting screenshots etc as I have to set up my new PC that I received for christmas with my screenshot program, AE, email, network, etc. Hopefully this will go smoothly. My old single processor cpu has served very well for the last 6+ years but now, with so many programs calling for multi-cores as part of the minimum requirement, I am excited to have received a new system for christmas.

[LoBaron]

Hehe good to hear Seydlitz. Can´t wait for news from the SU frontline...

[aztez]

Good to see you back. I was also wondering whether "Russian" climate became too cold for the japanese army! [:D]
 
Take your time these PBEM sure are no sprints to the finish.

[Rob Brennan UK]

ORIGINAL: aztez

Good to see you back. I was also wondering whether "Russian" climate became too cold for the japanese army! [:D]

Take your time these PBEM sure are no sprints to the finish.

ditto .. good to see this game carrying on

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Note for Pearl Harbour you wont be loosing KB you can replace your losses . You could do a turn 1 sweep with A6M2 and Vals on the air field. If ok then come in with the Kates , the kates are the most valueable.

I would not sweep with 2 glens ,1 at most it is somethign that may get him to set units on Cap.

A better option maybe to land at Midway have your forces hover nearbye and see if you can draw some units of his. Once you have Midway you can scout Pearl with your Mavis's.

No, as an AFB I can say you are welcome to try Pearl. I will gladly let you sink a couple of ships and damage another 20 for a whack at taking out 150 front line pilots. Its a fair trade in my book. I concentrate all of my ships in one or two major ports and put up plenty of CAP. You can hit Seattle, or Portland, or whatever and score a few minor ships but I can't worry about that.

Better tactic for JFBs is to hunt the shipping lanes. You can sink 10 ships at Pearl and lose 150 planes, or sink five APs at sea along with some troops and lose no pilots. Do the math.

[Oliver Heindorf]

go seydlitz go ! [:)]

[Ghertz]

"go seydlitz go ! [:)]"
My sentiments exactly!

[seydlitz_slith]

We finally did our first turn in a week and a half. Turns out that in addition to the holidays we both upgraded to new computers. I don't have a bunch of pictures from the turn as I am still setting my capture program back up like I want it. However, it is safe to say that the war continues.

It is now turn 94, late March, 1942. The situation against the Soviets is not as clear as before. In some areas I am making progress, but in others I am sliding back. He has been able to clear my forces off of the rail line and has been able to move forces south, attempting to cut off my forces engaged at Voroshilov. Meanwhile, our deadlock at Voroshilov continues with both sides weakened to the point that neither of us have been attacking. Most critical for me is the fact that several of my artillery units have simply disappeared from the hex. I must assume that they were totally destroyed in the continuing artillery exchange.

At any rate, my Southern Army forces have completed landing at Rashin and have been marching towards the Soviet border fort west of Voroshilov. Hopefully I will be able to break through from here and resolve the stalemate.