Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A)

[desicat]

Maybe Nemo will chime in and provide a few tips.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: rader

I mean, are they supposed to give an advantage in ability to get through defenses, accuracy, or damage inflicted? And if none of these, what's the point of using them?

I think historically it was to give an exp level '1' pilot a chance of doing some damage not to give a exp '70' pilot superhuman powers ..If you have exp level 70 pilots it is probably better to just do the regular attack thing ..

I saw some some small group raids with Helens .. I understand Nemo set loose 100's all at once at vulnerable targets .. the CR says for example:

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Niigata at 115,55

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 19 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 20



Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 11 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 2 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
DD Cassin Young
DD Wedderburn, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire
DD Wickes
DD Young
DD Yarnall



Aircraft Attacking:
20 x Ki-43-IIIa Oscar flying as kamikaze
Kamikaze: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb

Just a thought ...

[Nemo121]

No, not after I was left hung out to dry by the forum when Krupp posted.

Posting any advice about kamis in this thread would obviously relate to this game and I've said I wouldn't do that ---- plus why make myself a target when I KNOW most people here won't actually pipe up if I'm attacked for answering their questions. If I thought they'd stand up I'd be more willing to post but making myself a helpless target in order to help people who don't lift a finger in response --- No thanks.

I've been PM'ed re: advice on kamis today and have responded by directing those who contacted me via PM to my previous AARs. There's more than enough information there for people to draw the correct conclusions.

[desicat]

Nemo, I can understand your standing on principle and can't argue with that - ever.

I thought that tips on the effective use of Kamikazes would be a tactical lesson that everyone could learn from and watch play out. When put in those terms I didn't really think it would be considered by anyone to your giving strategic advice.

[Nemo121]

desicat,

To paraphrase Shakespeare; To those who wish to make an issue even a puff of breeze is proof of a hurricane. No, once bitten, twice shy.

[krupp_88mm]

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: krupp_88mm

?????? [&:] ??????

I am not sure of your point except that I need a pro-version of photobucket to understand your point of view ...

[krupp_88mm]

pro version.....

[jeffk3510]

Ive always got your back Nemo. Especially from fakes like Krupp

[rader]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

No, not after I was left hung out to dry by the forum when Krupp posted.

Posting any advice about kamis in this thread would obviously relate to this game and I've said I wouldn't do that ---- plus why make myself a target when I KNOW most people here won't actually pipe up if I'm attacked for answering their questions. If I thought they'd stand up I'd be more willing to post but making myself a helpless target in order to help people who don't lift a finger in response --- No thanks.

I've been PM'ed re: advice on kamis today and have responded by directing those who contacted me via PM to my previous AARs. There's more than enough information there for people to draw the correct conclusions.

Hi Nemo,

Sorry if you feel I didn't stick up for you. I just don't want to get involved in personal issues unrelated to WITP, and don't want to "stir to pot". And I thought the "flame" post you are refering to really couldn't be taken seriously anyway. But I definitely understand your position if you don't want to give advice to either side.

[rader]

[:D][:D] I've got to know what the heck is this my little pony stuff? [:D][:D]

[rader]

No turn tonight, Greyjoy and I are both really drunk and going to bed...

[Itdepends]

Boy you could read that the wrong way - sleeping with the enemy and all that.

[Grfin Zeppelin]

ORIGINAL: Itdepends

Boy you could read that the wrong way - sleeping with the enemy and all that.

That came up to my mind also instantly.

[Chickenboy]

@ Rader,

I would expect improved efficacy of your kamikaze attackers were they escorted. None of the small-ish raids that you showed had escorted attackers. I would expect that Helen IIa kamikazes encountering appreciable CAP would get shredded and have their attack dulled, just as a 'regular' unescorted flight of Helens would be kneecapped. I'd expected somewhat better results from your Oscar IIa attack, as they are speedier and presumably more able to avoid CAP, but the sample size here is hard to make heads or tails out of.

Kamikazes are going to be a numbers game. You're going to lose a bunch of 'em. Thousands, like IRL. Every so often-say 10-20% of the time-one will hit and cause some pain. Although I don't have the personal PBEM Kamikaze experience behind me (yet), I would venture that large commitments (say 1000 in a turn) of trained and escorted kamikazes that are capable of breaking through a fatigued Allied CAP are likely to engender more success for you.

In your example, I count a total of 70 Kamikaze losses (mixed frames) to all losses. How many of these broke through CAP? You certainly can't fault the kamikaze mission for bombers getting chewed up by CAP, can you?

Still, with all the issues associated with these attacks, you've scored 3 hits. That's 4.3%.

I would venture this percentage can be improved to the better by incrementally improving your kamikaze approaches or methods. Good luck! We're rooting on you to fend off the Allied dogs!

[rader]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

@ Rader,

I would expect improved efficacy of your kamikaze attackers were they escorted. None of the small-ish raids that you showed had escorted attackers. I would expect that Helen IIa kamikazes encountering appreciable CAP would get shredded and have their attack dulled, just as a 'regular' unescorted flight of Helens would be kneecapped. I'd expected somewhat better results from your Oscar IIa attack, as they are speedier and presumably more able to avoid CAP, but the sample size here is hard to make heads or tails out of.

Kamikazes are going to be a numbers game. You're going to lose a bunch of 'em. Thousands, like IRL. Every so often-say 10-20% of the time-one will hit and cause some pain. Although I don't have the personal PBEM Kamikaze experience behind me (yet), I would venture that large commitments (say 1000 in a turn) of trained and escorted kamikazes that are capable of breaking through a fatigued Allied CAP are likely to engender more success for you.

In your example, I count a total of 70 Kamikaze losses (mixed frames) to all losses. How many of these broke through CAP? You certainly can't fault the kamikaze mission for bombers getting chewed up by CAP, can you?

Still, with all the issues associated with these attacks, you've scored 3 hits. That's 4.3%.

I would venture this percentage can be improved to the better by incrementally improving your kamikaze approaches or methods. Good luck! We're rooting on you to fend off the Allied dogs!

Maybe, but the problem is that if I escort them, I lose valuable fighter pilots too. Escorts just can't compete in any sense against CAP. This is the main reason my air losses are so high in this game. Give eqaul skill and aircraft, escorts vs. CAP suffer hugely disproportionate losses - at least 2:1 and I would guess more like 3:1. As someone once said, they are nothing more than ablative armor. [8|]

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: rader

I mean, are they supposed to give an advantage in ability to get through defenses, accuracy, or damage inflicted? And if none of these, what's the point of using them?

My testing suggests that kamikaze give a greater accuracy (by this I mean =/= 0) to untrained pilots fresh from reserve, but actually do significantly reduced damage compared to just putting the same bomb weight into the target by normal means, so that you need at least 2, and better 3 Val hits to put a DE or an old DD anywhere near critical condition. I cannot vouch 100% that this wasn't changed somehow by beta tweaks since then.

[rader]

ORIGINAL: FatR

ORIGINAL: rader

I mean, are they supposed to give an advantage in ability to get through defenses, accuracy, or damage inflicted? And if none of these, what's the point of using them?

My testing suggests that kamikaze give a greater accuracy (by this I mean =/= 0) to untrained pilots fresh from reserve, but actually do significantly reduced damage compared to just putting the same bomb weight into the target by normal means, so that you need at least 2, and better 3 Val hits to put a DE or an old DD anywhere near critical condition. I cannot vouch 100% that this wasn't changed somehow by beta tweaks since then.

Darn, so they really don't seem very useful. I mean, it only takes a month or so to train a pilot up to around 60 NavB skill (maybe 1.5 months), where they have a decent chance of hitting. Maybe the reason they seem useless is that training pilots to be "average" (~60 skill) dosen't take very long.

Read Nemo's AAR in detail and I think part of the difference is not that he's getting/expecting better hit rates, but that he is using planes with very large bombloads as kamikazes. I imagine a strat bomber kamikaze could do quite a number on a ship, while a biplane would just be swept off the deck.,,

EDIT: I guess the training groups could be used as kamikazes because their old biplanes aren't much good for normal naval attacks, but it also seems to me like a better use for these groups is just to increase the training rate of conventional pilots.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: FatR

ORIGINAL: rader

I mean, are they supposed to give an advantage in ability to get through defenses, accuracy, or damage inflicted? And if none of these, what's the point of using them?

My testing suggests that kamikaze give a greater accuracy (by this I mean =/= 0) to untrained pilots fresh from reserve, but actually do significantly reduced damage compared to just putting the same bomb weight into the target by normal means, so that you need at least 2, and better 3 Val hits to put a DE or an old DD anywhere near critical condition. I cannot vouch 100% that this wasn't changed somehow by beta tweaks since then.

The biggest change I perceive is in how CAP works. The changes Rader suggested after the LB's were wreaking havoc in central Japan also mean that CAP is more effective overall and reduced numbers penatrating to make a hit.

It was my understanding that at Oki the IJ used 2:1 and 3:1 escorts on their Kami's meaning a lot more pentrated the CAP. The raids shown here were small and given the new CAP algorithums not very many made it through . but those that did and hit someething did damage ...

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: rader
I mean, it only takes a month or so to train a pilot up to around 60 NavB skill (maybe 1.5 months), where they have a decent chance of hitting. Maybe the reason they seem useless is that training pilots to be "average" (~60 skill) dosen't take very long.

Hmmm...

rader, did you train your kamikazes on NavB or LowNav? My understanding is that Kamikazes attack using LowNav / Kamikaze training / skills, not NavB. You may not have been as trained as you suspect...