Lambs to the slaughter (Lowpe (J) vs Jocke; BillBrown (A)) Finished

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Should I just offer to nix the altitude restriction on fighter ops HR? Or do we keep them for continuity sake?

I can see their use for stock games when you keep getting strato-sweeps. If a game is DBB or a mod based on that airframe data, I don't see why they are needed. JWE knocked down the high ceilings of airframes to get rid of the need for HR, IMO.

I do not even see the need regarding so-called "strato-sweeps" because the fighter-vs-fighter altitudes are just metaphors. All that matters is 'this one was able to attack from higher than that one was stationed at'. The HRs stop that and thus have a negative effect. Get rid of altitude HRs and go right ahead with "strato-sweeps" when they benefit you.

This game does represent history well-enough that during some periods with some match-ups one player will get hammered while the other feels helpless later on. There are plenty of counter tactics to high sweeps.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Quite frankly, I don't think it augurs well for the future of the game.

What I was biting my tongue on ....

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: witpqs
There are plenty of counter tactics to high sweeps.

+1

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


I am not a huge fan of HR, and certainly there is no reason to keep them anymore since both Olorin and Jocke are out of the game.

Should I just offer to nix the altitude restriction on fighter ops HR? Or do we keep them for continuity sake?

Nix the HR and kindly explain this result is not due to the HR but due to the nature of numbers, altitudes, airframe stats, weather, dice rolls and a few other factors. Also it might be beneficial to point out to him that flying higher may not be to his advantage, and if he wants an easy go of it this won't be the game for him.

Best to get it all out of the way now so it doesn't come back to bite later when the going really gets tough.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


I am not a huge fan of HR, and certainly there is no reason to keep them anymore since both Olorin and Jocke are out of the game.

Should I just offer to nix the altitude restriction on fighter ops HR? Or do we keep them for continuity sake?

Nix the HR and kindly explain this result is not due to the HR but due to the nature of numbers, altitudes, airframe stats, weather, dice rolls and a few other factors. Also it might be beneficial to point out to him that flying higher may not be to his advantage, and if he wants an easy go of it this won't be the game for him.

Best to get it all out of the way now so it doesn't come back to bite later when the going really gets tough.

Just got an email from BillBrown, and he is bowing out.

[Lowpe]

Well, lets see.

Lok has offered to pick the game up in a week or two, but to be honest...I feel like I want it to end.

First and foremost, I am a scenario 1 style JFB...and in scenario 2 Japan is simply too strong for most of the game.

Second, I simply love all the different planes and pdu off handicaps a lot of models that I like to play around with.

Third, my game with Obvert is utterly fascinating and deserves more of my gaming and AAR time. Two games is simply too much for my time. 1.3 games is about right I think.

Lok would be an incredibly tough opponent, and make for a great game, but for another time when I have more time...and after I make Obvert kneel and yield. [:D]

[Lokasenna]

I don't play with max altitude HRs anyway [;)]

[Lowpe]

I was open to getting rid of it. As I have said many times I am not a big HR kind of guy.

I still have to look back and see which side wanted it. The other HR I didn't like was no strategic bombing in China.

[Lecivius]

If you 2 do decide to mix it up, I'll buy the pizza and beer [;)]

[Canoerebel]

No game should be allowed to die on the vine like this one.

Jeff, give it a few days or weeks to mull over. I hope you'll then feel the need to take it up. I know all of us Formites hope that you do. And a contest between you and Loka would make good reading.

P.S. I'm at a loss to understand how this game ended this way. What came over Bill?

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

If you 2 do decide to mix it up, I'll buy the pizza and beer [;)]

I'll let the Manny & Olga's joint near me know to expect weekly pizza orders on my behalf.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

P.S. I'm at a loss to understand how this game ended this way. What came over Bill?

I think his excitement level was high, he got the turn, got it up and running and found out it was PDU off, that Jocke only converted 17 AKEs, and didn't realize how much work a pickup game is initially and got overwhelmed.

He quit once before the initial turn he did, but and he explained that as first turn jitters, when he decided to pick up the game again.

I think a lot of AFBs are OCD, and can't mentally take other AFBs setups. [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D] Sarcasm, Joke there with just a dash of truth.[;)]

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel


Jeff, give it a few days or weeks to mull over. I hope you'll then feel the need to take it up. I know all of us Formites hope that you do. And a contest between you and Loka would make good reading.

I don't know. With two games, that are both heavily involved with action, I find my emphasis turns to flipping turns, and I make lots of really careless mistakes. I can't concentrate on the units and their devices as much, and in general have a lot less fun.

Jocke might want to come back in a year or so, but more likely he would want to start a new game. So in other words don't hold your breath.

Also, Bill divulged a fair bit of meta game knowledge to me.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel


Jeff, give it a few days or weeks to mull over. I hope you'll then feel the need to take it up. I know all of us Formites hope that you do. And a contest between you and Loka would make good reading.

I don't know. With two games, that are both heavily involved with action, I find my emphasis turns to flipping turns, and I make lots of really careless mistakes. I can't concentrate on the units and their devices as much, and in general have a lot less fun.

Jocke might want to come back in a year or so, but more likely he would want to start a new game. So in other words don't hold your breath.

Also, Bill divulged a fair bit of meta game knowledge to me.

I'm still up for it at a pace of a couple of turns a week. I have several games going as well (with one winding down) that are going at varying paces. PDU Off is a downer, but not a huge deal once 1945 comes along. And the weather is about to get colder, so my outdoor construction is about to pause in a few months. I wouldn't intend to do an AAR.

Meta game knowledge isn't a constant.

[Canoerebel]

What the heck is "meta game"?

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

What the heck is "meta game"?

Some of the big picture things Jocke did that upset Bill.

[Canoerebel]

I looked it up: "Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself."

That's a pretty vague definition. I do understand the definition presented by Lowpe, but it doesn't strictly seem to fit within the actual definition.

[Lowpe]

Just got an email from Bill, thought I would post it here.


I have informed Jeff that I will not be able to take over this game. I really under appreciated how much time it would take.
I still work full time and 4 games was too much. It is my fault, I should not have offered, but sometimes we all do stupid things.
I was not happy with the house rules, but in less than a month they would have been mostly obsolete anyway. I just do not have
the time it would take to do this game justice. I will stick with my three existing games( two are quite slow ) and try and not
overload my self again.

It was too much me to handle and I sincerely apologize for it.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I looked it up: "Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself."

That's a pretty vague definition. I do understand the definition presented by Lowpe, but it doesn't strictly seem to fit within the actual definition.

I am using definition number 2 from Lowpe's Global Stupid American Dictionary of misused words.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I looked it up: "Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself."

That's a pretty vague definition. I do understand the definition presented by Lowpe, but it doesn't strictly seem to fit within the actual definition.

I am using definition number 2 from Lowpe's Global Stupid American Dictionary of misused words.

Metagaming is separate from meta (game) knowledge.

For example, typically in Dungeons & Dragons the dungeon master would not let the players know how much health an adversary has. However, if it is a stock adversary (such as a hill giant), players who have looked at the profile for a hill giant before will know that it has roughly X health. They will also know roughly how much damage they have done to it throughout the course of a fight, so can gauge their actions accordingly.

In WITP parlance, I assume "meta game knowledge" would refer to pilots, plane pools, LCU prep targets, staging areas, etc. Some opsec things, others not so much.

From reading Jocke's AAR, I have a general idea of the state of the Allied forces and don't think anything that's unknown would be unrecoverable.