The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

[Canoerebel]

Two things interesting about today's Score Screen (is that the right name for it?) - notice the number of Japanese ships sunk and the number of IJ aircraft lost today.

[Canoerebel]

Roster of Allied ships sunk (with xAK, PT and minesweepers redacted).

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

but he's just getting flotsam and jetsam (spelling?)

Ah, but what is the legal difference, counselor? [:'(]

[bradfordkay]

Flotsam is the floating junk left when a ship goes down. Jetsam is the floating stuff that had been thrown overboard in the hopes of preventing the ship from going down.

[Canoerebel]

Then shouldn't the terms be "float-some" and "jettison"????

[bradfordkay]

It's sailor speak, Dan... it's supposed to be unintelligible. Why is Boatswain pronounced bosun?

[Houtje]

And why do they say fo'c'sle?

Btw, CR, are you playing with unreliable torps on or off? Any other HR's?

[pws1225]

Ever met a chief boatswain mate (called "boats" for short)? Entirely unintelligible, drunk or sober, but you'd trust your life to them in a pinch.

[Canoerebel]

Hey, no taking seriously my attempt to make a play on words (feeble as it was....)!
 
Reliable torps are off, unfortunately.  A few minor house rules including the usual "pay PP to cross national border" and "no strat bombing until 1944."

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Flotsam is the floating junk left when a ship goes down. Jetsam is the floating stuff that had been thrown overboard in the hopes of preventing the ship from going down.

Right, but in pre-treaty days what was the legal difference?

Hint: think title.

Bonus round: if flotsam is this and jetsam is that, what's lagan and derelict?

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Houtje

And why do they say fo'c'sle?

Because by the time you could say "forecastle" the Spaniards had shot your ears off.

[pws1225]

Or your antlers, as the case might be.

[Cribtop]

I'm guessing one was legal salvage and/or subject to prize rules, the other was not?

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

It's sailor speak, Dan... it's supposed to be unintelligible. Why is Boatswain pronounced bosun?

Who knows what a "turk's head" is?

[bradfordkay]

IIRC, a Turk's Head is a huge knot used as a weighted end of a line that needs to be tossed some distance. It gets its name from its resemblance to a head wearing a turban.

Bullwinkle, my guess is that flotsam is covered under the rules of salvage while jetsam - being willfully jettisoned - is free to be claimed by anyone? I would suppose that the big issue is figuring out the difference.

As far as lagan is concerned, I do not have any recollection of that term (doesn't mean that it isn't buried somewhere deep in my memory banks). Derelict is a term for a vessel that has been abandoned in navigable waters, is it not?

[Cribtop]

Lagan is stuff sunk where it can be salvaged. Derelict is sunk where it is unsalvageable. I looked it up. [:D]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Lagan is stuff sunk where it can be salvaged. Derelict is sunk where it is unsalvageable. I looked it up. [:D]

Yep. Admiralty law is really neat, especially the old cases from wooden ships days.

Flotsam lodged title in the original owner and not the salvor because there was no intent to abandon. The salvor could be awarded costs by the court, however. Fair is fair. Jetsam lodged title in the salvor because the property was cast adrift on purpose. If the cargo were multiple tons of crated tea, for example, the testimony of surviving crew could be worth up to millions of pounds/dollars either way. Amazing how memories of at-sea disasters could vary . . .

Lagan is flotsam which has sunk to the bottom but which can be reached by salvors. In some cases they had to mark it with a buoy to claim title, and in other cases they didn't. I believe there were also cases where jetsam was marked by a buoy by the disposer and they maintained title due to the use of the buoy even though it was affirmatively abandoned to the sea. Derelict is a collective noun for flotsam or jetsam on the bottom which is beyond the reach of salvors. I believe this designaiton had effect in insurance cases. The word is never used in common English as a collective noun anymore. It always carries an article (the derelict, a derelict) and usually refers to a vessel (or a wino.) But the original meaning was crates of stuff in deep, or rocky, waters.

Sorry, CR.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Houtje

And why do they say fo'c'sle?

Because by the time you could say "forecastle" the Spaniards had shot your ears off.

I always thought it had something to do with grog consumption and hiccups.

[Cribtop]

Cool stuff, Bullwinkle.

OK, I helped drag this off topic, so I'll try to steer past the flotsam, salvage the jetsam and get back on topic. [;)]

CR, it's way too early to have any real read on John's plan, but what does your gut tell you about his grand strategy? Is he sure to go for auto vic? If so, what are his targets?

[MateDow]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Yep. Admiralty law is really neat, especially the old cases from wooden ships days.

...and it is amazing how much of that old case law still has relevance in modern decisions.

I am looking forward to following this AAR.