Attacking submarines on NavS patrol question

[ScooterV]

I've seen numerous posts mentioning that pilots on a NavS can, and will, attack submarines as well and seen it myself. However, what skills increase the chances of attempting to attack and being successful at the attack? Is it based primarily on the pilot NavS skills since it matches the assigned mission, or do the ASW skills of the pilot make an impact on the odds of attacking and scoring a hit if if the mission itself is NavS?

[RangerJoe]

I've seen numerous posts mentioning that pilots on a NavS can, and will, attack submarines as well and seen it myself. However, what skills increase the chances of attempting to attack and being successful at the attack? Is it based primarily on the pilot NavS skills since it matches the assigned mission, or do the ASW skills of the pilot make an impact on the odds of attacking and scoring a hit if if the mission itself is NavS?

As far as I know, it is the NavS skill. When an air unit is on an ASW mission, then it is the ASW mission. I have had Devastators on ASW missions spot, report, and attack enemy TFs.

[Chris21wen]

NavS finds stuff at sea. Once found they can be attacked.
NavB is used to attack ships using bombs >2000'.
ASW is used to spot and attack subs using bombs. No height is specified in the manual and you can spot subs at any height but I've always assumed they drop to <=2000' when attacking.

It's a pretty simple concept. Ac do not carry depth charges and until mid-late war do not have the ability to find unsurfaced subs.

[ScooterV]

Thanks all. It sounds like only the skill matching the mission type is used, at least when it comes to a NavS attacking a spotted sub. What raised the question is my VP squadrons. I have some on NavS and some on ASW and train them specifically. Many bases have one of each, but small, isolated places I only have one squadron. Johnston Island for example. I wasn't sure if it worth the time and effort to dual train all those pilots on ASW even though they are assigned NavS. Sounds like just further improving NavS skill is all that's needed

[RangerJoe]

Thanks all. It sounds like only the skill matching the mission type is used, at least when it comes to a NavS attacking a spotted sub. What raised the question is my VP squadrons. I have some on NavS and some on ASW and train them specifically. Many bases have one of each, but small, isolated places I only have one squadron. Johnston Island for example. I wasn't sure if it worth the time and effort to dual train all those pilots on ASW even though they are assigned NavS. Sounds like just further improving NavS skill is all that's needed

Well, if you have air crews trained in ASW then if the enemy puts a lot of submarines in an area you can do a lot more damage to them. I like to use the LB-30s and B-17Ds on ASW.

[ScooterV]

Yeah, I've been using B-17D in all the West Coast restricted squadrons for ASW, at least those with 8 planes. The restricted 13 plane squadrons are also all trained on ASW but various airframes. Good point though, if dual trained and a NavS starts seeing subs I can flip it right over to an ASW mission. Going to skip it for now though until all ASW and NavS are filled out with that skill and then start rotating the pilots back to training on the other skill.

[RangerJoe]

Yeah, I've been using B-17D in all the West Coast restricted squadrons for ASW, at least those with 8 planes. The restricted 13 plane squadrons are also all trained on ASW but various airframes. Good point though, if dual trained and a NavS starts seeing subs I can flip it right over to an ASW mission. Going to skip it for now though until all ASW and NavS are filled out with that skill and then start rotating the pilots back to training on the other skill.

Naval Search should fly at 6k feet and ASW should fly at 100 feet or 1000 feet. I usually fly them at 1000 feet so the pilots don't get too tired.

[btd64]

Yeah, I've been using B-17D in all the West Coast restricted squadrons for ASW, at least those with 8 planes. The restricted 13 plane squadrons are also all trained on ASW but various airframes. Good point though, if dual trained and a NavS starts seeing subs I can flip it right over to an ASW mission. Going to skip it for now though until all ASW and NavS are filled out with that skill and then start rotating the pilots back to training on the other skill.

Naval Search should fly at 6k feet and ASW should fly at 100 feet or 1000 feet. I usually fly them at 1000 feet so the pilots don't get too tired.

1000k. Good to know. I've been flying them a little higher....GP

[RangerJoe]

Yeah, I've been using B-17D in all the West Coast restricted squadrons for ASW, at least those with 8 planes. The restricted 13 plane squadrons are also all trained on ASW but various airframes. Good point though, if dual trained and a NavS starts seeing subs I can flip it right over to an ASW mission. Going to skip it for now though until all ASW and NavS are filled out with that skill and then start rotating the pilots back to training on the other skill.

Naval Search should fly at 6k feet and ASW should fly at 100 feet or 1000 feet. I usually fly them at 1000 feet so the pilots don't get too tired.

1000k. Good to know. I've been flying them a little higher....GP

The lower the better so the submarine does not have much time to react. That is why 100 feet is best but the chance of spotting a submarine is greatly diminished and the fatigue (I presume) would be higher for the pilot.

[Chris21wen]

In real life I sure as hell would want to drop a 250lb bomb from 100'.

[RangerJoe]

In real life I sure as hell would want to drop a 250lb bomb from 100'.

With an instant and not a delayed fuse you might damage your own aircraft dropping such a bomb that low! That could ruin your whole day.

[Chris21wen]

In real life I sure as hell would want to drop a 250lb bomb from 100'.

With an instant and not a delayed fuse you might damage your own aircraft dropping such a bomb that low! That could ruin your whole day.

I said 250lb when I should have said 250Kg, twice as big.

[JanSako]

"According to Heclapar" (if you know, you know), this is how it works:

NavSearch is for finding things (it finds TF's & subs)
ASW can also find subs - it is better at it BUT half the range.
ASW and NavSEA skill value determines how likely the pilot is to attack what it finds (ASW checked for attacking subs, NavSEA for attacking surface TF's) The mission does not matter at that point.
NAV or LowNav skill is used to determine if the pilot hits anything - based on mission height.

All of the rolls above are also affected by XP, so high XP can to some extent compensate for the low skill. Hence why Kido planes are so good at killing subs - because their NAV attacks rarely miss. A high NavSearch skill pilot will find the sub but may not attack, or if they attack they will miss due to low Nav skill.
Note: many of the in-replay 'sub reported hit' messages are false. Anecdotally over 90% until you have good ASW & NAV Bomb.

[ScooterV]

"According to Heclapar" (if you know, you know), this is how it works:

NavSearch is for finding things (it finds TF's & subs)
ASW can also find subs - it is better at it BUT half the range.
ASW and NavSEA skill value determines how likely the pilot is to attack what it finds (ASW checked for attacking subs, NavSEA for attacking surface TF's) The mission does not matter at that point.
NAV or LowNav skill is used to determine if the pilot hits anything - based on mission height.

All of the rolls above are also affected by XP, so high XP can to some extent compensate for the low skill. Hence why Kido planes are so good at killing subs - because their NAV attacks rarely miss. A high NavSearch skill pilot will find the sub but may not attack, or if they attack they will miss due to low Nav skill.
Note: many of the in-replay 'sub reported hit' messages are false. Anecdotally over 90% until you have good ASW & NAV Bomb.

Thanks!

Ok, that contradicts some of the above and what I was asking about. I know the mission types, what they do and altitudes, but it's about when does a particular pilot skill apply. Is it based on the action being taken, or just the assigned primary mission. A made up example:

2 PBY squadrons and both flying NavS at 6,000 feet. Both have pilots trained to 70+ NavS with an average of 74. One also has pilots trained to an average of 70 on ASW, while the other has pilots trained in ASW only to an average of 40. So, even though assigned NavS and both "can" detect and attack subs, does the higher ASW skill have an impact on doing so and/or succeeding? It seems you are saying it does, while others seemed to state only the skill that applies to the assigned task counts, so increasing NavS even higher would help more than trying to improve the ASW skills.

[Chris21wen]

"According to Heclapar" (if you know, you know), this is how it works:

NavSearch is for finding things (it finds TF's & subs)
ASW can also find subs - it is better at it BUT half the range.
ASW and NavSEA skill value determines how likely the pilot is to attack what it finds (ASW checked for attacking subs, NavSEA for attacking surface TF's) The mission does not matter at that point.
NAV or LowNav skill is used to determine if the pilot hits anything - based on mission height.

All of the rolls above are also affected by XP, so high XP can to some extent compensate for the low skill. Hence why Kido planes are so good at killing subs - because their NAV attacks rarely miss. A high NavSearch skill pilot will find the sub but may not attack, or if they attack they will miss due to low Nav skill.
Note: many of the in-replay 'sub reported hit' messages are false. Anecdotally over 90% until you have good ASW & NAV Bomb.

Thanks!

Ok, that contradicts some of the above and what I was asking about. I know the mission types, what they do and altitudes, but it's about when does a particular pilot skill apply. Is it based on the action being taken, or just the assigned primary mission. A made up example:

2 PBY squadrons and both flying NavS at 6,000 feet. Both have pilots trained to 70+ NavS with an average of 74. One also has pilots trained to an average of 70 on ASW, while the other has pilots trained in ASW only to an average of 40. So, even though assigned NavS and both "can" detect and attack subs, does the higher ASW skill have an impact on doing so and/or succeeding? It seems you are saying it does, while others seemed to state only the skill that applies to the assigned task counts, so increasing NavS even higher would help more than trying to improve the ASW skills.

I contradicts nothing except for NavB.

There have been many posts on this subject over the past 15 years and the overall consensus is, no one know for sure as the specifics have never been released. Many years of playing and testing have just reinforced what others have found.

I repeat my earlier post.

NavS finds stuff at sea. Once found they can be attacked.
NavB is used to attack ships using bombs >2000'.
ASW is used to spot and attack subs using bombs. No height is specified in the manual and you can spot subs at any height but I've always assumed they drop to <=2000' when attacking.

It's a pretty simple concept. Ac do not carry depth charges and until mid-late war do not have the ability to find unsurfaced subs. NavB is not needed to hit subs, just a ASW.

In your example if you want to find and hit subs then use the unit with the high ASW and fly them at 1000'. NavS and NavB play no part in ASW ops. The purpose of ASW is to both find and attack subs.

If you want to find stuff at sea use either and fly them higher. ASW plays no part in naval search. The one with the higher NavB is more likely to hit something it targets once it finds it but the purpose of NavS is not to attack but to find. This is unlike ASW which is to do both.

[JanSako]

"According to Heclapar" (if you know, you know), this is how it works:

NavSearch is for finding things (it finds TF's & subs)
ASW can also find subs - it is better at it BUT half the range.
ASW and NavSEA skill value determines how likely the pilot is to attack what it finds (ASW checked for attacking subs, NavSEA for attacking surface TF's) The mission does not matter at that point.
NAV or LowNav skill is used to determine if the pilot hits anything - based on mission height.

All of the rolls above are also affected by XP, so high XP can to some extent compensate for the low skill. Hence why Kido planes are so good at killing subs - because their NAV attacks rarely miss. A high NavSearch skill pilot will find the sub but may not attack, or if they attack they will miss due to low Nav skill.
Note: many of the in-replay 'sub reported hit' messages are false. Anecdotally over 90% until you have good ASW & NAV Bomb.

Thanks!

Ok, that contradicts some of the above and what I was asking about. I know the mission types, what they do and altitudes, but it's about when does a particular pilot skill apply. Is it based on the action being taken, or just the assigned primary mission. A made up example:

2 PBY squadrons and both flying NavS at 6,000 feet. Both have pilots trained to 70+ NavS with an average of 74. One also has pilots trained to an average of 70 on ASW, while the other has pilots trained in ASW only to an average of 40. So, even though assigned NavS and both "can" detect and attack subs, does the higher ASW skill have an impact on doing so and/or succeeding? It seems you are saying it does, while others seemed to state only the skill that applies to the assigned task counts, so increasing NavS even higher would help more than trying to improve the ASW skills.

The unit with higher ASW skill will have a higher chance to attack the sub they found. Their hit chance is affected by their NAV skill.

I do not care much about the consensus unless these are all folks that can read the code. As far as testing, we know that you need to set up the conditions right to only test one variable otherwise you get Gary Grigsbied by all the other variables.

One unit.
All skills 70 except Nav Attack, same exact conditions.
First run set pilot NAV attack skill 10
Second run set pilot NAV attack skill 70

Mission: Nav SEA, height 2k
Fly them against a bunch of subs around the base for say 10 or 20 turns.
Restart the scen with changed NAV attack skill & run it again.
Record the number of attacks and number of hits (needs to run H2H) - you would be surprised how many are false (or I would )

This is why proving stuff is very difficult.

[BBfanboy]

"According to Heclapar" (if you know, you know), this is how it works:

NavSearch is for finding things (it finds TF's & subs)
ASW can also find subs - it is better at it BUT half the range.
ASW and NavSEA skill value determines how likely the pilot is to attack what it finds (ASW checked for attacking subs, NavSEA for attacking surface TF's) The mission does not matter at that point.
NAV or LowNav skill is used to determine if the pilot hits anything - based on mission height.

All of the rolls above are also affected by XP, so high XP can to some extent compensate for the low skill. Hence why Kido planes are so good at killing subs - because their NAV attacks rarely miss. A high NavSearch skill pilot will find the sub but may not attack, or if they attack they will miss due to low Nav skill.
Note: many of the in-replay 'sub reported hit' messages are false. Anecdotally over 90% until you have good ASW & NAV Bomb.

Thanks!

Ok, that contradicts some of the above and what I was asking about. I know the mission types, what they do and altitudes, but it's about when does a particular pilot skill apply. Is it based on the action being taken, or just the assigned primary mission. A made up example:

2 PBY squadrons and both flying NavS at 6,000 feet. Both have pilots trained to 70+ NavS with an average of 74. One also has pilots trained to an average of 70 on ASW, while the other has pilots trained in ASW only to an average of 40. So, even though assigned NavS and both "can" detect and attack subs, does the higher ASW skill have an impact on doing so and/or succeeding? It seems you are saying it does, while others seemed to state only the skill that applies to the assigned task counts, so increasing NavS even higher would help more than trying to improve the ASW skills.

The unit with higher ASW skill will have a higher chance to attack the sub they found. Their hit chance is affected by their NAV skill.

I do not care much about the consensus unless these are all folks that can read the code. As far as testing, we know that you need to set up the conditions right to only test one variable otherwise you get Gary Grigsbied by all the other variables.

One unit.
All skills 70 except Nav Attack, same exact conditions.
First run set pilot NAV attack skill 10
Second run set pilot NAV attack skill 70

Mission: Nav SEA, height 2k
Fly them against a bunch of subs around the base for say 10 or 20 turns.
Restart the scen with changed NAV attack skill & run it again.
Record the number of attacks and number of hits (needs to run H2H) - you would be surprised how many are false (or I would )

This is why proving stuff is very difficult.

This is not correct. Alfred (who had access to the code) made it very clear that ASW has its own attack algorithm and that only the level of ASW skill applies for both detection and attack while on an ASW mission.
I think he said it was similar for Naval Search - self contained detection and attack algorithms with no reference to NavB or LowN skills. Overall pilot experience might play a role though - sort of a steadier hand/less buck fever effect.

[JanSako]

This is not correct. Alfred (who had access to the code) made it very clear that ASW has its own attack algorithm and that only the level of ASW skill applies for both detection and attack while on an ASW mission.
I think he said it was similar for Naval Search - self contained detection and attack algorithms with no reference to NavB or LowN skills. Overall pilot experience might play a role though - sort of a steadier hand/less buck fever effect.

I have never conversed with the mythical Alfred who other people also say did not have access to the code. Just as some say he did. I have conversed with a person who was able to post excerpts from the code that I saw with my own eyes & he was able to analyze the functions (not on this forum) so that is where I place my trust.

Others do what they will. Note I am not voicing an opinion about the correctness or not of what others say; I would appreciate if you did not judge the 'correctness' of mine either unless you have a first hand knowledge that refutes it, which I would welcome, of course.

[Chris21wen]

This is not correct. Alfred (who had access to the code) made it very clear that ASW has its own attack algorithm and that only the level of ASW skill applies for both detection and attack while on an ASW mission.
I think he said it was similar for Naval Search - self contained detection and attack algorithms with no reference to NavB or LowN skills. Overall pilot experience might play a role though - sort of a steadier hand/less buck fever effect.

I have never conversed with the mythical Alfred who other people also say did not have access to the code. Just as some say he did. I have conversed with a person who was able to post excerpts from the code that I saw with my own eyes & he was able to analyze the functions (not on this forum) so that is where I place my trust.

Others do what they will. Note I am not voicing an opinion about the correctness or not of what others say; I would appreciate if you did not judge the 'correctness' of mine either unless you have a first hand knowledge that refutes it, which I would welcome, of course.

Arn't you lucky at seeing the code!

I do not need a lesson in testing thank you, been doing it for some considerable time.

I will leave it there and let people beleive whatever they want to believe.

[JanSako]

@chris funny why would you think I was trying to give you a lesson?
Unless you accidentally used your other account to reply? LoL (just a joke!)

I have not done such a test either. Knowing how & taking the time to actually do it are two different things. Plus one would only need it if their current approach (to the sub problem) is not working. If it is, then all is well.