Some modding-related questions

[CaptainPeche]

I'm currently making a 'small' alt-history scenario (essentially where WW1 lasted for a year longer, leading to some... Not-so-minor alterations to the Washington Naval Treaty and even more not-so-minor alterations to the actual OOB) and I have several random questions that come to mind. I should probably note that I use the 1st scenario from the latest beta as a base scenario.

1) There are some non-fighter aircraft that have maneuver stat specified for different altitudes. Does that impact aircraft performance?
2) Is there any point in LCI(R)s and other support LCIs? They can't carry cargo/troops, so are they there just for the sake of being there?
3) I've played against allied AI before, but I've never really continued into 1944+, so I don't really know how Japanese shipbuilding work. In theory, if I add lots of ships to Japan, will they just not be completed in time or will they get finished by the time specified in the editor? I am planning to add the 5th and 6th naval construction programs specifically to let the player choose what they want to focus on, but I'm worried that it would be possible to get all those 15 Yamatos by 1946, which would be a cool reference to a certain movie scene, but it would be stupid.
4) Is there any way to check whether the ship is realistically refitted or not? I've checked my South Dakota rebuilds using RtW3 (not an ad), but that seems kind of stupid.
5) How on earth is aircraft range defined in this game? Is it a certain factor of max. range? Is it just a random number? How is it related to endurance? I remember stumbling upon some B-17, B-26 and B-25 manuals and the range calculations I've done according to their charts vary WILDLY from the rangers and bomb loads in the game.
6) Is the repair shipyard at Manila supposed to represent USS Dewey or are those actual docks? If they are, please tell me who and when built them, because I've been thinking about it for about two months now.
7) Why are there no ARDs in game apart from the Japanese one and the really big American ones? US had a few cruiser sized ones, and I'll try and look for Japanese mobile repair facilities later as well (IIRC there was just Akashi though)
8) What do you think of adding 'damaged' repair shipyards and possibly aircraft plants for allied bases in places like Australia, Singapore, Philippines and possibly India and Ceylon? Seems like a workaround to game limitations and an interesting way to represent possible allied construction of large naval bases in strategically important areas.

P.S. if anyone has a line drawing of USS Texas that shows where her boilers were before the refit to oil-fired ones, I'm more than glad to take a quick look at it.

[BBfanboy]

1. Maneuver affects the ability of any aircraft to avoid being shot down.
2. RTFM. The (R) means rocket. Ever see old newsreel clips showing rockets being fired from a LCI during a landing?
3. I don't play Japan, but I know shipbuilding is tied to HI points and Naval or Commercial Shipyard points and probably eats supply too. Any big increase in shipbuilding will affect ability to produce aircraft, trained pilots and trained LCUs.
4. Not sure what you mean by realistically refitted. AFAIK the game uses historical refits and the approximate times they took place. There may be devices that were in the real life refit that the game does not capture because they would not affect the ship's performance much.
5. Weapon loadouts are standard, so there is no variability of range based on carrying a lighter load other than one option in the configuration (e.g. bombs vs a single torp. or an extra fuel drop tank vs a centerline bomb.) So the 3 given range figures are: transfer range with no load, extended range with lighter weapon load, or normal range. Weather is not considered. Altitude is not considered. It's all an approximation so you don't have to read and aircraft performance charts. Don't overthink it.
6. You should be able to find out about Manila's docks online.
7. Many things were "standardized" in the game to keep it simpler and to minimize the size of the database. In 2009 when the game came out it was pushing the limits of storage on the average PC. There were also issues with Windows being able to address large storage devices (the file system had a limit). So a lot of the commercial ship types were standardized instead of looking up the stats on every tramp steamer used in the period. Same for Auxiliary vessels like ARDs.

[CaptainPeche]

1. Maneuver affects the ability of any aircraft to avoid being shot down.
2. RTFM. The (R) means rocket. Ever see old newsreel clips showing rockets being fired from a LCI during a landing?
4. Not sure what you mean by realistically refitted. AFAIK the game uses historical refits and the approximate times they took place. There may be devices that were in the real life refit that the game does not capture because they would not affect the ship's performance much.
6. You should be able to find out about Manila's docks online.

1) Well, that's understandable. i think I'll just disregard this point entirely as the very few bombers that have altitude-dependent agility stat are probably just copy-pasted from some random fighter.
2) I get it and yes. I wonder if that actually has any real impact during landings though... I've never noticed any difference, at least.
4) Actually I meant if there's any way to check if a refit would've been possible, but not carried out IRL. Foolish of me to ask it here? Maybe. Do I have any other place to ask? No, not really.
6) Oh, I've tried. As it turns out, record keeping was surprisingly bad in any region under ABDAcom, what a surprise... A 'small boat repair facility' is mentioned in some places with no specifications given whatsoever (probably just small docks for PT boats though) and then there's USS Dewey, but then dock space must be limited to 16.000 tons, not 20.000.

[BBfanboy]

2. Some players swear the rockets are very effective and others say not. I think the DL probably matters, and maybe the weather.
4. The game does not want to follow every real-life war circumstance - it gives you the option to do the upgrades or not and the enemy the option to sink your ship before it upgrades or not!
6. Way back about 10 years ago one of our members posted a link to a site that listed all the drydocks available in WWII. There were far more than the game shows but most were small. Given it was available back then I expect there is a source that still shows that. Try not looking for Manila explicitly, but drydocks in general. Or try searching this site for a post about drydocks reference material.

[CaptainPeche]

2) One way to find out - invade Tarawa a few hundred times. Might do that, might not. I'll tell the results when I get them though, now that I'm kind of interested myself.
6) Thanks for the advice, I'll try it.

[HansBolter]

Take a look at the Focus Pacific scenario for additional smaller ARDs.

The work has already been done on them.

I tried adding some of them to the Long Road to Tokyo scenario, but couldn't get it to load after all of my adds.
LRT is already massive and likely pushing the limits of the database. I think I probably pushed it over the limits with more adds.

[bradfordkay]

From what I have read, there was no drydock at Cavite, merely a nautical railway suitable for small craft. The Dewey Drydock was originally at Olangapo but was moved to Marivelles shortly before hostilities broke out.

[CaptainPeche]

The work has already been done on them.

I wish I knew that... A year or so ago. But I'll gladly compare my research with theirs, maybe I've missed something.

In any case, I wasn't really planning to move too far away from the original scenario, but now I'm sort of not sure what I even want. My plan was to essentially swap the WNT limitations from 35.000 to 45.000 due to... A small historical change in one Russian offensive during WW1 of all things and to see some of the big and mean super-dreadnoughts come into play, but now I'm realizing I'll definitely have to change the entire battleship OOB as well, and maybe even change the light forces as well. I can't think of anything but an Omaha with 4 twin 6in turrets though... But that's just me rambling.

[CaptainPeche]

From what I have read, there was no drydock at Cavite, merely a nautical railway suitable for small craft. The Dewey Drydock was originally at Olangapo but was moved to Marivelles shortly before hostilities broke out.

I came to a similar conclusion because of a complete lack of information about any sort of major repair facilities anywhere west of Pearl Harbor. Well, we probably don't have USS Dewey as a ship because ARDs can't repair engine damage in game.

[DOCUP]

Captain P: Welcome to the frustrated world of WITP:AE Modding. I have a love/hate relationship with it.

1: This was addressed earlier.
2: You can take the LCI's and make them have no real function. Go into the editor and remove the troop/cargo amount.
3: I'm not a Japanese player. You can add the ships, but the AI might not build them. If you play a PBEM, then that player can pick and choose what he/she would want to build.
4: Check google and books for refits.
5: This one still gets me. Do the best you can.
6/7: Check Da Babes, ARD's are in that including ARD Dewey and others.
8: If you wanted to add things like that you can. Someone else did something similar in their mod.

Cruise the internet and books. Ask around here and Alt History forums for help or ideas. I do it everyday.

Good Luck

[Cavalry Corp]

Here are my comment

1: This was addressed earlier.

Well I was aways told mvr ratings are only for fighters bombers and recon use one fixed number - am I wrong?

2: You can take the LCI's and make them have no real function. Go into the editor and remove the troop/cargo amount.
3: I'm not a Japanese player. You can add the ships, but the AI might not build them. If you play a PBEM, then that player can pick and choose what he/she would want to build.
4: Check google and books for refits.
5: This one still gets me. Do the best you can.

I think this is ghard coded by the game if you chage the value i do not think it makes a difference but I always put an estinated one in.

6/7: Check Da Babes, ARD's are in that including ARD Dewey and others.

I have ARD and new ARD in my mods

8: If you wanted to add things like that you can. Someone else did something similar in their mod.
.

[PaxMondo]

I'm currently making a 'small' alt-history scenario (essentially where WW1 lasted for a year longer, leading to some... Not-so-minor alterations to the Washington Naval Treaty and even more not-so-minor alterations to the actual OOB) and I have several random questions that come to mind. I should probably note that I use the 1st scenario from the latest beta as a base scenario.

I guess this is in addition to your previous questions in Main. This is the better place to discuss this.

1) There are some non-fighter aircraft that have maneuver stat specified for different altitudes. Does that impact aircraft performance?

To my knowledge, altitude maneuver only affects aircraft that can operate CAP/Sweep missions. These would be: Fighters, Fighter Bombers, Float Fighters, Night Fighters, and Float Planes and they only impact the air model when the mission is either CAP or Sweep. All other missions use only the maneuver stat.

2) Is there any point in LCI(R)s and other support LCIs? They can't carry cargo/troops, so are they there just for the sake of being there?

No, they all have AA guns and some have surface guns/rockets. In addition, they attract hits on themselves instead on your loaded LC's. So, a definite purpose. Or be like the IJ, who doesn't get any of these, and just lose troops.

3) I've played against allied AI before, but I've never really continued into 1944+, so I don't really know how Japanese shipbuilding work. In theory, if I add lots of ships to Japan, will they just not be completed in time or will they get finished by the time specified in the editor? I am planning to add the 5th and 6th naval construction programs specifically to let the player choose what they want to focus on, but I'm worried that it would be possible to get all those 15 Yamatos by 1946, which would be a cool reference to a certain movie scene, but it would be stupid.

Ship building for the IJ takes either NSY or MSY points. You can add all the ships you want, but they only build as fast as the points accumulate. The AI is very simple, it builds everything in order. So, loading up the IJ queue will get you nowhere.

Allies OTOH are completely different. Ships in the queue arrive on the date specified. So queue adds to the allies will arrive as scheduled.

4) Is there any way to check whether the ship is realistically refitted or not? I've checked my South Dakota rebuilds using RtW3 (not an ad), but that seems kind of stupid.

I use SpringSharp and a lot of common sense to do my Naval designs. There are other tools out there as well.

5) How on earth is aircraft range defined in this game? Is it a certain factor of max. range? Is it just a random number? How is it related to endurance? I remember stumbling upon some B-17, B-26 and B-25 manuals and the range calculations I've done according to their charts vary WILDLY from the rangers and bomb loads in the game.

As discussed in MAIN, this is very tricky and the Number 1 rule is check Scen 1 first. The devs spent a lot of time on this. The game engine does not allow for ALL of the possible permutations that were actually used/done in the field. So, the dev's setup the "general rules" for this, but then looked at each aircraft specifically and made sure that it could perform its historical role. So, the A6M2 range was adjusted to ensure it could escort all the way to Guadacanal from Rabaul because they historically did this. Certain allied bomber ranges were adjusted so that they could perform historical missions. It ain't perfect, but you need to be real careful of this as you can greatly unbalance the game here.

6) Is the repair shipyard at Manila supposed to represent USS Dewey or are those actual docks? If they are, please tell me who and when built them, because I've been thinking about it for about two months now.

I don't know, not my area of expertise.

7) Why are there no ARDs in game apart from the Japanese one and the really big American ones? US had a few cruiser sized ones, and I'll try and look for Japanese mobile repair facilities later as well (IIRC there was just Akashi though)

I don't know, not my area of expertise but I will say that I have added some for the IJ. However, they only move 2 hex/day and have to start in Hiroshima. So after they are built, they have to travel a great distance slowly AND they are very vulnerable to all attacks. Oh, and the biggest ones that the IJ can build are 3 - 5K.

8) What do you think of adding 'damaged' repair shipyards and possibly aircraft plants for allied bases in places like Australia, Singapore, Philippines and possibly India and Ceylon? Seems like a workaround to game limitations and an interesting way to represent possible allied construction of large naval bases in strategically important areas.

"Possible" falls into the "fantasy" category (not derogatory here, just how we call it), which means you can do whatever you like. The issue is that they can get built WAY faster in the game as compared to RL.
I've mentioned that my mod has a number of external, player mandates and tracking. Here is an example from my mod: 1942 LCU upgrades CANNOT be done until/unless the following hexes (area around Sian) are owned by the IJ, and at least XX Resource Factories are operational.

I would suggest something similar like: put a size 0 RSY in Bombay, but then a player restriction like: cannot start building until after 1/44 AND no IJ units within 25 hex range AND Bombay has a minimum of 100K supply in base AND ....

If you don't do something like this, you will unbalance the game badly.

 

P.S. if anyone has a line drawing of USS Texas that shows where her boilers were before the refit to oil-fired ones, I'm more than glad to take a quick look at it.

Conversions from coal to oil generally did not change the firebox locations; they just got more efficient and of course got to lose all that ash handling equipment.

[CaptainPeche]

I guess this is in addition to your previous questions in Main. This is the better place to discuss this.

Actually, this is an older thread and I specifically asked in main once more to get... A tiny bit more attention. It worked.

So, loading up the IJ queue will get you nowhere.

That is kind of the whole point, I want to make it impossible to complete some of the ships added. It'll be a nice addition for the IJN player... And the AI would simply get a bunch of carriers. I might shuffle some extra DDs in-between though if they simply build everything in order.

"Possible" falls into the "fantasy" category

Yeah, I've already thought of this. Now you can only start the repair of those shipyards after certain LCUs spawn at the designated locations (mainly based on historical completion time right now, might add some more actual 'fantasy' docks in some places later)

Conversions from coal to oil generally did not change the firebox locations; they just got more efficient and of course got to lose all that ash handling equipment.

I wanted to see the plans as she had 14 boilers connected to 2 funnels and I wish to know the way they've designed the funnel uptakes. I've seen some line drawings for South Dakota class dreadnoughts (it looks like there is some internal space available for two more boilers, changing the total amount from 12 to 14) and I simply wanted to know whether or not it would've been possible to actually make all that steam go outside through a singlefunnel to make the bloody thing faster. By the way, I've recently found Springsharp as well (thanks, Drach's Bismarck video), but thanks for the advice.

As for your question about whether I'm designing the scenario for PBEM or AI games... It's probably both, but I'll have to learn how to write AI scripts for the game before making them. In any case, I'll check the historical production figures for IJN aircraft and adjust the amount of aircraft and engine factories and then adjust the amount of oil and resources available in/near mainland Japan accordingly. Moreover, I'm planning to add some LCUs to Japanese starting OOB to balance out the Vichy French forces in Indochina. Moreover, Dutch and Australian forces, the main defenders of Indonesia, haven't been changed all that much (mind the restricted 10th CMF AUS Inf. Div) and the increase in Japanese naval power is more than enough to destroy even the three shiny new Sharnho-... I mean, Project 1047-class battlecruisers the Dutch now have. Kido Butai carries more planes (~35) as well, so I don't think it would be difficult to at least blast your way through the Java sea and patrol around Ambon and Tjilatjap. I will definetly add a home rule stating that no British armored divisions should fight outside British or Siamese territory and no Indian armored divisions should be fighting outside Burma.

[PaxMondo]

As for your question about whether I'm designing the scenario for PBEM or AI games... It's probably both, but I'll have to learn how to write AI scripts for the game before making them. ...

You are biting off a lot by saying this. With only a very few exceptions, and none really successful, all mods are envisioned as either PBEM or AI. The reason why has to do with how the AI acts at higher difficulty levels vis-a-vis just a PBEM. The couple that are marginally successful were designed as PBEM and it turns out the AI works, after a fashion, for the first few months ok.

In general, PBEM is MUCH more straight forward.


Using my mod as an example, it would NEVER work in PBEM. The assumption of allied AI is CRUCIAL to the mod design. Attempting to play as a PBEM, it is SO unbalanced that the allies would achieve an auto-victory by Dec 42 easily. It is the only way to create a challenging AI game ... but by definition that means it is totally unplayable as a PBEM.

Even the devs struggled with the PBEM/AI game balance ... hence the Ironman series .... and they had access to the code ... which modders do not.

Just my thoughts ....

[Cavalry Corp]

maybe check out my Age of Steel mod - it probably has a lot of what you are looking for - patch coming tomorrow for that mod...