How to ruin the game?

[stjeand]

France fell beginning of August...

NOW keep in mind I would consider myself an inexperienced newer player.
I have only played 2 games against a seasoned opponent.
Most of my games have been against newer players as I was...and I do not play as the Allies much at all, only once the game having gone past France and that was my very first game as the Allies I ever played. It went wrong in every way.

Here are the casualties

[MorningDew]

Curious to learn what those of you testing this "All In" situation find with the new beta.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

Looks like you will lose the whole front line in T1 of attack on France because there aren't any retreat paths - unless this is just a display formation.

Yes indeed

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: stjeand

France fell beginning of August...

NOW keep in mind I would consider myself an inexperienced newer player.
I have only played 2 games against a seasoned opponent.
Most of my games have been against newer players as I was...and I do not play as the Allies much at all, only once the game having gone past France and that was my very first game as the Allies I ever played. It went wrong in every way.

Here are the casualties

For someone with relatively little experience to cause those casualties against 1 of the game's best players, is telling about the OP nature of the 'all-in' strategy

[baloo7777]

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

When is France falling?

I haven't commented or posted in a long time. I have almost stopped playing this game PvP. Just finishing up my last 2 PBEM's. I'll probably put this on the shelf for a while in favor of WiTE2.
In one of my current PBEM's as the Allies, France has just fallen in March 1941, and the Germans lost 2 armor/mech units to the British and French Armor (apparently the British 2-pounder was able to defeat the PZ III's). In the other as Allies, I have been able to severely damage the Wehrmacht in France, while still holding on to Egypt. France fell end of August.
I believe I posted months ago that I felt France was too strong and the British were sending 7-9 ground units plus 4-5 air units. I even saw a 16 factor Armor unit as a regular occurrence in France in June '40. I remember one time coming upon 3 Brit Armor + 1 Brit Mech AND the French Armor after my 5 Panzer Corps + 1 Mech Corps were at the 50- 70% effectiveness (chewed up going through Belgium/Northern France) and being decimated as the Axis. I complained in this forum. Mostly the replies were asking if I knew what I was doing (trucks/Infantry screens etc.).
Most comments were that experienced players got through France in July-August in pretty good shape. Now I see a bevy of players making the same point I did, and so now you weaken the Brits, which is good I suppose. BTW...I adopted the ahistorical British BEF for my allied games as that seemed the only way to keep up with the rest of the online PvP crowd. I guess I really prefer a more historical game than one I often referred to in my posts as "fantasy".

[AlvaroSousa]

Like I said depending between skill, effort, and luck France should fall June to August, and really bad situation September. We start with small changes and see what happens.

[ComadrejaKorp]

Curious to learn what those of you testing this "All In" situation find with the new beta.

I have not tested Beta but with the calculator in hand we are talking about a penalty of approx 385pp (7 tank subfactors + 93 infantry subfactors), according to my current plan I can withdraw a troop from the Middle East without weakening it too much and spending less on supply trucks, So it seems to me that the current situation does not change much.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

Curious to learn what those of you testing this "All In" situation find with the new beta.

I have not tested Beta but with the calculator in hand we are talking about a penalty of approx 385pp (7 tank subfactors + 93 infantry subfactors), according to my current plan I can withdraw a troop from the Middle East without weakening it too much and spending less on supply trucks, So it seems to me that the current situation does not change much.

That is my fear too. This is too easy to buy some replacements. If we remove one UK air superiority unit (250PP) and the UK WDF armored corps (360PP) from the beginning, it would change things a little more.

[ncc1701e]

I don't think people realize what a big BEF can do and how easy it is for the Allies player to sacrifice the French units.
Even playing very carefully, here is the situation ending my turn.

[ncc1701e]

And the next turn...

[ncc1701e]

Here is the situation at the beginning of my turn:
[*]French are sacrificed on purpose.
[*]All UK units still have some retreat paths.

[stjeand]

Not to critic the set up...after the fact of course...

The only thing I can see you could have changed was have the armor in the north further from the line and not have your infantry on hold.

But I think something still would have been shattered and you would have lost more forward progress.

[LiquidSky]

The 'secret' to defeating the French quickly is Armour. Disband all your bombers on the first turn. They are very useful units to be sure, but not as useful as the Panzers you will buy with them.

Buy three panzer corps first turn. Then buy one a turn (disbanding infantry) until they will no longer show up as a reinforcement by May 1st. Then do the same buying Mech...one per turn.

Keep the fighters. For May 1st I end up with 6 Panzer corps and 2 mech corps, with 6 Fighters. Along with another Panzer and Mech entered as reinforcement...

You will have disbanded about a dozen or so infantry corps...but you will have 7 panzer corps and 3 mech corps..and the French front is very tight...you won't miss them.

The lack of bombers will also mean the lack of air attrition...the allied fighters can't shoot down something that doesnt exist.

The next turn you will punch a large hole in the french lines and take Lille. If the english are in France, you can play conservatively and kill them. If they are not, you will be adjacent to Paris. Third turn you take Paris if no English..otherwise you continue to kill them.

Having breakthrough panzers with 10 attacks is huge. Once a unit is dislodged, it is no longer fortified, has suffered readiness and will die when a leap frogging panzer kills it.

The big down side (of course) is no bombers. Which means you are relying on fighters to provide for you. I found that with my 6 fighters, I was able to gain an odds on my attack on Paris.

It is June 21st and I have just installed Vichy and I am doing my turn. My friend knew what I was planning and wisely left the English out of France, so only the French suffered.

[ComadrejaKorp]

After seeing how my game vs NCC as an Ally is developing, to test All-in defense, I have contrary thoughts.

NCC has made a cautious attack protecting its tanks, advancing slowly but surely.
Its casualties will be reasonable (+ -200 troops / + - 100 aviation) and France will fall in August.
He can choose if he does not want Vichy because he has massacred the French, he has taken advantage of BOA which will prevent Uk from helping the Soviets a lot when Barbarrosa arrives.

When you lose 4 tanks it is a big problem, NCC will only lose 4 Corps, I think this is not fatal.

I think the real problem with the All-in defense is when the Axis player uses Blitzkrieg (except LiquidSky's Blitzkrieg), but NCC has made the smartest attack I've seen against this defense that I thought was insurmountable.

My thoughts:

So, all-in strategy does have defense.

The future change in CV air power will help Axis gain air superiority, and Uk's initial troop reduction will also help make this defense even more risky for Allies.

This game will be matched after the French campaign, and it remains to be seen how many English troops will be able to escape from France. We should see in several longer games what is the real long-term price that the Allies will pay for using this defense.

But I'm worried that this defense will ruin the game anyway, because if France falls late and wears down Axis a lot, the game will only have one way for Axis (to conquer minor countries and wait for Barbarrosa, not Africa, not the Middle East, not SeaLion , not Spain) in short, few strategic options and that's not fun.

[ComadrejaKorp]

First of all congratulations on finding a method to defeat the French All-in defense.

It is a very smart move, undoing 4 tactical bombers and 12 corps you lose 1680pp, but if you conquer France earlier and have fewer casualties, you recover a large part of the pp, although I would like to know if it is advantageous in the long term.

If in 1939 Germany had focused on making only tanks but had given up all its bombers, would a result similar to the one you obtained in the attack on France been possible? Some players will say that without air support it would not have been possible, and others will say that with a smaller but more motorized army it would.

I think the problem with your Blitzkrieg is the same as that of the All-in defense, both are strategies that would have been possible but are not completely realistic.

Although I am a firm defender of not limiting the tactical and strategic possibilities of the game too much, I think that when you use any of these strategies in the game you lose a lot of the fun because they condition the game too much.

I think that both strategies should have limitations so as not to spoil the game, not because of a question of legality but because of a question of playability.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky


The 'secret' to defeating the French quickly is Armour. Disband all your bombers on the first turn. They are very useful units to be sure, but not as useful as the Panzers you will buy with them.

Buy three panzer corps first turn. Then buy one a turn (disbanding infantry) until they will no longer show up as a reinforcement by May 1st. Then do the same buying Mech...one per turn.

Keep the fighters. For May 1st I end up with 6 Panzer corps and 2 mech corps, with 6 Fighters. Along with another Panzer and Mech entered as reinforcement...

You will have disbanded about a dozen or so infantry corps...but you will have 7 panzer corps and 3 mech corps..and the French front is very tight...you won't miss them.

The lack of bombers will also mean the lack of air attrition...the allied fighters can't shoot down something that doesnt exist.

The next turn you will punch a large hole in the french lines and take Lille. If the english are in France, you can play conservatively and kill them. If they are not, you will be adjacent to Paris. Third turn you take Paris if no English..otherwise you continue to kill them.

Having breakthrough panzers with 10 attacks is huge. Once a unit is dislodged, it is no longer fortified, has suffered readiness and will die when a leap frogging panzer kills it.

The big down side (of course) is no bombers. Which means you are relying on fighters to provide for you. I found that with my 6 fighters, I was able to gain an odds on my attack on Paris.

It is June 21st and I have just installed Vichy and I am doing my turn. My friend knew what I was planning and wisely left the English out of France, so only the French suffered.

I don't know if it is necessary to disband all the medium bombers and infantry LS. With my build plan (see my AAR) I can build 5 armour and 3 mech by the end of May with another mech arriving in June. Obviously not as strong as your 7 armour and 3 mech; but it does save 4 bombers and 12 infantry Corps.

But if you are correct, than once again I lament the ineffectiveness of air units in this game compared to other unit types; particularly armour and mechanized.

PS: We should play a game.

[stjeand]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky


The 'secret' to defeating the French quickly is Armour. Disband all your bombers on the first turn. They are very useful units to be sure, but not as useful as the Panzers you will buy with them.

Buy three panzer corps first turn. Then buy one a turn (disbanding infantry) until they will no longer show up as a reinforcement by May 1st. Then do the same buying Mech...one per turn.

Keep the fighters. For May 1st I end up with 6 Panzer corps and 2 mech corps, with 6 Fighters. Along with another Panzer and Mech entered as reinforcement...

You will have disbanded about a dozen or so infantry corps...but you will have 7 panzer corps and 3 mech corps..and the French front is very tight...you won't miss them.

The lack of bombers will also mean the lack of air attrition...the allied fighters can't shoot down something that doesnt exist.

The next turn you will punch a large hole in the french lines and take Lille. If the english are in France, you can play conservatively and kill them. If they are not, you will be adjacent to Paris. Third turn you take Paris if no English..otherwise you continue to kill them.

Having breakthrough panzers with 10 attacks is huge. Once a unit is dislodged, it is no longer fortified, has suffered readiness and will die when a leap frogging panzer kills it.

The big down side (of course) is no bombers. Which means you are relying on fighters to provide for you. I found that with my 6 fighters, I was able to gain an odds on my attack on Paris.

It is June 21st and I have just installed Vichy and I am doing my turn. My friend knew what I was planning and wisely left the English out of France, so only the French suffered.

The next turn you will punch a large hole in the french lines and take Lille. If the english are in France, you can play conservatively and kill them. If they are not, you will be adjacent to Paris. Third turn you take Paris if no English..otherwise you continue to kill them.

If you play certain people, missing all those infantry means there will be an invasion landing in Germany. That might be a counter.

I think the bigger downside will be the USSR. Disbanding all your infantry will cost you heavily. You gain very little PP from France...so waiting to take it 2 months later means just a 100PP difference. That is not even a small corp.
But I guess you will need to see in the game you are playing.

There might be other ways to get what you are trying to do...I am playing around with a few.

As Harry said...a game against others might be interesting.

[LiquidSky]

Well, I didn't disband all my infantry. I left full corps on the westwall, and had about 5-6 more to provide flank protection. As well I had even built 3 infantry corps that arrived in time for Case Yellow. A quick count shows I have about 20 infantry corps on the map.

The amount of build points I lost would be 90 BPP per disbanded infantry. The Stuka's won't be replaced, but the bombers will, so that is a loss as well. But balanced with that is I hardly lost anything in France. And I never had to buy any trucks..in fact I only used 10 total and still have 30 left.

There is about 24 turns until May 1941. I can build at least one infantry corp a turn, sometimes two. Which should give me a solid front against Russia. My opponent is no stranger to playing the Russians, so my game will pass/fail on the Eastern Front.

[Flaviusx]

Liquidsky, if the only way to counter the Allied all in is to trash the luftwaffe and a good chunk of your infantry to pile on panzers, I am back to advising people to play the 40 scenario.

The answer to cheese is not more cheese. Just say no.

39 scenario is broken.

[AlvaroSousa]

Is this the official or the beta?