USA corps 1943 more powerful than Soviet army 1944

[ncc1701e]

I really struggled to understand why my Soviet armies are overrunned so easily in Summer 1943.

I am always coming back to the same conclusion. The difference is Defense and Artillery between USA and USSR. The gap is never changed during the course of the game.

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Assault 1944.JPG (109.18 KiB) Viewed 1319 times

[ncc1701e]

Right now, an USA infantry corps, Assault 1943, is more powerful than a Soviet rifle army, Assault 1944.

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USA Assault 1943.JPG (93.32 KiB) Viewed 1318 times

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Soviet Assault 1944.JPG (130.84 KiB) Viewed 1318 times

[ncc1701e]

Again, those events could really make a difference in terms of game balance for increasing the losses of the German units, a little in 1941 and certainly after mid of 1942. These events basically remove USA/USSR differences.

//USSR armies are upgraded with the introduction of Tank Brigades
$ChangeUnitAttributes
if_Date=9/1/1941
if_Country=4
if_Alliance=Allies
lifespan=tillTrigger
targetCountry=4
unitID=4
stats=36,4,2,2,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,4,5,1,60,180,1,1
text=The USSR continues to reorganize their military introducting Tank Brigades inside their armies due to the failure of existing Mechanized corps organization. Tanks and Oil Use are increased by 1.
addReportTo=Allies
$End

The following is from the vanilla version but I am keeping it here by event execution time order

//USSR air units increase in values as 1933 I-15s and I-16s are replaced with modern aircraft in 1942
$ChangeUnitAttributes
if_Date=1/1/1942
lifespan=tillTrigger
targetCountry=4
unitID=11
stats=20,0,0,0,0,7,2,0,1,0,1,2,7,2,6,180,180,1,1
text=The USSR replaces obsolete fighters in noticable amounts. Air combat is increased to 7 and defense to 6 for air superiority groups.
$End

//USSR armies are upgraded with the introduction of Katyusha rocket artillery
$ChangeUnitAttributes
if_Date=2/1/1942
if_Country=4
if_Alliance=Allies
lifespan=tillTrigger
targetCountry=4
unitID=4
stats=36,4,2,3,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,4,5,1,60,180,1,1
text=USSR military introduces new Katyusha rocket artillery separate units in all existing infantry armies enhancing their indirect firepower. Artillery is increased by 1.
addReportTo=Allies
$End

//USSR armies are upgraded with the introduction of penal battalions
$ChangeUnitAttributes
if_Date=7/28/1942
if_Country=4
if_Alliance=Allies
lifespan=tillTrigger
targetCountry=4
unitID=4
stats=36,4,2,3,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,5,5,1,60,180,1,1
text=Defense Order N°227, Ni Shagu Nazad! (Not a Step Back!), aimed primarily at officers and policital commissars, was issued by Stalin to prevent any further unauthorized retreat. USSR infantry army units gain +1 defense.
addReportTo=Allies
$End

[Nirosi]

Hi,

In the end US will have an extra tank and an extra artillery. By 1943, it means that all armaments counted for CV value is 14 for US and 12 for USSR. Not that much, but important especially since 1 of the 2 points in difference is due to artillery which by firing first makes it the best of all elements. Defense should be the same at 6 (by 1943).

However, the Soviet Army has 20% extra strength not shown in the armament stats (but shown in the total CV if I understand the numbers correctly). So this means that in combat, a Soviet army has 20% more "elements" firing when at full strength compared to the US corps at full strength. For simplicity, not taking into account firing priority, a US corps could fire up to 30x14 (420) elements in battle while the Soviet could fire 36x12 (435). For an equal defense.

So I am not 100% convinced that the US corps is indeed stronger when counting strength difference as well.

PS: I am not saying that the Soviets should not get back their artillery. I could very well be a good and necessary idea for game balance. I am just not 100% convinced that the US corps is actually stronger.

[ncc1701e]

Hi,

In the end US will have an extra tank and an extra artillery. By 1943, it means that all armaments counted for CV value is 14 for US and 12 for USSR. Not that much, but important especially since 1 of the 2 points in difference is due to artillery which by firing first makes it the best of all elements. Defense should be the same at 6 (by 1943).

However, the Soviet Army has 20% extra strength not shown in the armament stats (but shown in the total CV if I understand the numbers correctly). So this means that in combat, a Soviet army has 20% more "elements" firing when at full strength compared to the US corps at full strength. For simplicity, not taking into account firing priority, a US corps could fire up to 30x14 (420) elements in battle while the Soviet could fire 36x12 (435). For an equal defense.

So I am not 100% convinced that the US corps is indeed stronger when counting strength difference as well.

PS: I am not saying that the Soviets should not get back their artillery. I could very well be a good and necessary idea for game balance. I am just not 100% convinced that the US corps is actually stronger.

I don't say that I disagree with you. This is just that in my current game, as well as many others in the past, the Soviet armies are just OVERRUN, OVERRUN, ...
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 0&t=402139

I am convinced that this difference in Defense and Artillery is explaining a lot in this behavior. Also, you are not highlighting it but the Tank attribute is not anywhere in the Soviet OOB where Soviet Tank Brigade did a wonderful job in WW2.

Soviet rifle army MUST have a Tank attribute of 1 just like the USA infantry corps. Dunn's books named Stalin's key to victory or Hitler's Nemesis have explained this well enough.

[stjeand]

Well my understanding of overrun is a bit different and may not be correct...

I thought it was odds of the attack and the defender's willingness to hold their ground vs retreat.

The Russian leaders, Konev and Zhukov have 8 for their Tenacity which I believe are the highest in the game. So the units under their command do not retreat. This is the same issue the Japanese have in WPP...

Not sure how to address this since it was a doctrine that the Russians used...no retreat.

NOW is that the cause for everything...not sure.

A tank value would mean...more oil consumption for the unit (2 per attack which their infantry use none now). Attack and defense should go up BUT in the end...they might get overrun more because now they have an even less chance to retreat because of the tank unit.

I did check using the editor...the unit seems to gain one more Attack and one more Defense with the tank...

So a Russian unit of the same caliber as a US unit due to size has one more Attack and one more Defense. IF they are given a tank, they get another attack and another defense.

BUT the oil consumption would basically knock the Russians out of the game.
Every US unit attacking takes 2 oil...That keeps the US moving more slowly. If you did that to the Russians they would be out of oil every turn due to the number of attacks they face and counter attacks they make.

That would have to be addressed.

[ncc1701e]

Playing with the editor, I can do few tests. Changing the attributes to where I think they should be mid of 1942.

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Editor.JPG (108.68 KiB) Viewed 1262 times

[ncc1701e]

Here is the comparison of Soviet rifle armies (same experience, same effectiveness): 13-5 vs 15-5

1. Soviet rifle army Assaut 1944 in the stock game and:

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Soviet Assault 1944.JPG (120.43 KiB) Viewed 1260 times

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2. Soviet rifle army Assaut 1944 with the above events to match USA infantry corps:

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Soviet Assault 1944 my view.JPG (106.08 KiB) Viewed 1260 times

[ncc1701e]

Even the stock game is cheating. Look at Europe 1944 scenario. The Soviet shock army are at 60% experience. How is it possible when you are starting a game in 1939? You guess it, this is not possible. The based game experience is going up to 50% and, with the Soviet manpower issue, I would be very surprised to reach 60% experience.

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Europe 1944 - Soviet Rifle Assault 1944 60%.JPG (153.71 KiB) Viewed 1255 times

[ncc1701e]

The German infantry corps Assaut 1939 has a Defence level of 5. FIVE. Whereas the Soviet infantry army Assault 1944 has a Defense level of 6 in the stock game. SIX.

Yes the German has mobile defense. Maybe. But in 1944, Soviets do not have anti-tank guns, SU-100, SU-122, SU-152, ISU-122, ISU-155, T34/76, T34/85, ZiS-2. This is not counting? What is this?

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GER Assault 1939.JPG (147.96 KiB) Viewed 1249 times

[ncc1701e]

A tank value would mean...more oil consumption for the unit (2 per attack which their infantry use none now). Attack and defense should go up BUT in the end...they might get overrun more because now they have an even less chance to retreat because of the tank unit.

I did check using the editor...the unit seems to gain one more Attack and one more Defense with the tank...

So a Russian unit of the same caliber as a US unit due to size has one more Attack and one more Defense. IF they are given a tank, they get another attack and another defense.

BUT the oil consumption would basically knock the Russians out of the game.
Every US unit attacking takes 2 oil...That keeps the US moving more slowly. If you did that to the Russians they would be out of oil every turn due to the number of attacks they face and counter attacks they make.

That would have to be addressed.

That would mean that Baku oil would really be an objective.
That would mean that Soviets would have to do operational pauses between major offensives.

Enough of the boring stalemate described by generalfdog:

"Germany needs to be forced to go for broke like they did historically otherwise they can just sit back and the whole theater becomes a boring stalemate".

[ncc1701e]

And this is the best case. The reality is below when you are fighting:

7-3 with an experience of 42% and an effectiveness of 68%

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Soviet Assault 1944 - effectiveness 68% - experience 42%.JPG (164.07 KiB) Viewed 1230 times

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11-4 with an experience of 50% and an effectiveness of 82%

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Soviet Assault 1944 - effectiveness 82% - experience 50%.JPG (138.6 KiB) Viewed 1230 times

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Yeah, enough of the boring stalemate.

[Nirosi]

I am convinced that this difference in Defense and Artillery is explaining a lot in this behavior. Also, you are not highlighting it but the Tank attribute is not anywhere in the Soviet OOB where Soviet Tank Brigade did a wonderful job in WW2.

Is there really difference in defense? I thought they both had the same value?

[Nirosi]

Even the stock game is cheating. Look at Europe 1944 scenario. The Soviet shock army are at 60% experience. How is it possible when you are starting a game in 1939? You guess it, this is not possible. The based game experience is going up to 50% and, with the Soviet manpower issue, I would be very surprised to reach 60% experience.

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Europe 1944 - Soviet Rifle Assault 1944 60%.JPG

I must disagree here, it certainly not "impossible". It is not common, but very possible. I did play Soviet units, in a few games, with units that did reach 60%+ by 1944-45. Not many, but some can. I even reserve guard status for units still at 55+ when full strength (I am like that )

[Nirosi]

"Germany needs to be forced to go for broke like they did historically otherwise they can just sit back and the whole theater becomes a boring stalemate".

Ya, I would agree with this one... Would make it much better.

[ncc1701e]

I am convinced that this difference in Defense and Artillery is explaining a lot in this behavior. Also, you are not highlighting it but the Tank attribute is not anywhere in the Soviet OOB where Soviet Tank Brigade did a wonderful job in WW2.

Is there really difference in defense? I thought they both had the same value?

Absolutely, USSR defense is -1 for rifle armies compared to all the other countries during the whole duration of the game. 36 strength vs 30 strength does not compensate that.

I can understand this is done early in 1941/1942 but not during the whole duration of the war. As such, my idea to use an event to realign everything later. In 1943, German were not able to break like they are doing today in the game.

[Nirosi]

Hum... I just checked and it is true; I never noticed that. I kind of assumed the extra losses where due mostly to experience, but it seems not only!

I agree that this is big. The -1 artillery is only 1 out of 11 or so firing weapons in 1942 (and probably compensated by the extra 6 steps firing), but the -1 defense is actually 1 less on... 6 (for an Assault). A lot!

[AlvaroSousa]

Yea that is wrong. USSR corps also have a lower defense. It should be 5 for both.

I don't remember if this is just a mistake or a change I was supposed to make and forgot.

I will adjust it in all scenarios and put up a google drive link.