How to ruin the game?

[stjeand]

Alvaro...

I have 2 games going, mirrored with ComadrejaKorp now...and we are getting ready to fight.

But ncc has one against him right now..lets see how that goes.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

I need data here to see what is going on. Like when does France fall in this situation? August? At all? Are French marching into Germany with the English arm in arm?

All 3 have AARs

[Rick2020]

I've read some of the posts in this thread and I have to say that I haven't been wargaming for 48+ years because I want to recreate the same historical result of any historical simulation. I wargame because of the possibility of a different result happening. I want to win because of my strategy and tactics. Not because I have an advantage so the same historical result will happen -again. Yeah, I have my preferences. I don't necessarily like gaming the Nazi side because of their heinous actions. I want to trounce them because of their evil nature -as they deserve.

So, if an opponent uses a strategy in this game you don't like, well, that's gaming. In a wargame, one side has to win. If they beat you, they beat you. There's always a replay. I wargame to have fun after all, no matter who wins.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

If someone would care to email me or post a screen shot of what June 1st 1940 looks like from the ALLIED side from all of France to Northern England it would help.

@ComadrejaKorp, could you please post your screenshots on the Allies side? I promise I won't watch it. [:D]

[AlvaroSousa]

He sent them to me.

[AlvaroSousa]

ORIGINAL: Rick2020

I've read some of the posts in this thread and I have to say that I haven't been wargaming for 48+ years because I want to recreate the same historical result of any historical simulation. I wargame because of the possibility of a different result happening. I want to win because of my strategy and tactics. Not because I have an advantage so the same historical result will happen -again. Yeah, I have my preferences. I don't necessarily like gaming the Nazi side because of their heinous actions. I want to trounce them because of their evil nature -as they deserve.

So, if an opponent uses a strategy in this game you don't like, well, that's gaming. In a wargame, one side has to win. If they beat you, they beat you. There's always a replay. I wargame to have fun after all, no matter who wins.

That is what WarPlan is a simulation based on history not a historical simulation.

The French fleet stuff is silly. And I am going to do something about it.

But I have to see the rest. It's about balance.

If the Allies through everything + the kitchen sink in to France yea the Germans should be delayed till August and maybe September. If they through historical then June July.

But if there is a kitchen sink tactic that wrecks the chances of the Axis to win then that's bad for the game. That is what I am determining.

To me if the UK throws everything in France and sacrifices convoy protection that creates a strong 1941 and the Germans take France out in September then that's still balanced.

[ComadrejaKorp]

@ComadrejaKorp, could you please post your screenshots on the Allies side?

I post a Abwehr report on your AAR, I hope it doesn't bother you.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

@ComadrejaKorp, could you please post your screenshots on the Allies side?

I post a Abwehr report on your AAR, I hope it doesn't bother you.

Absolutely not, thank you.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

As I already mentioned, it annoys me to lose a year and not be able to create your own army, something that undoubtedly favors immersion in the game.

Another thing that I think I am not going to like starting in 1940 is that there is no place for surprise, nor to prepare any strategy, I am sure it will be fun but I think it will be a more tactical than strategic game, and I think that after several games it will be bored.
It is possible that I am wrong, we will see.

Not true, there is all sorts of strategy here available, but it is going to be different. For starters, the British won't have the ME locked down in 1940 and if the Axis want to make a go of it here after France, they have a real chance to do so, provided they make the necessary amphib investments. In a conventional 39 game, the British aren't going to give you this option.

Alternately, the Germans could decide to knock out the Yugos and maybe even Greece and should have enough time to do that. Or they could ramp up the BoA. They have choices here. There are in fact far more strategic choices available in the 1940 scenario because the way people are playing the 39 scenario there is no long game at all, no alternate strategy. An allied all in on France means the game will be decided in France 1940, one way or the other, and you won't see games played out, rather you are going to get people resigning early. I submit this is the opposite of interesting play. Some of us would like to play the whole thing out. This just isn't happening with the stock 39 scenario.

[Flaviusx]

As things presently stand, I repeat: I wont' be playing the 39 scenario anymore. Not without a host of house rules. At which point, why bother? There is a 1940 scenario right there waiting to be played that will give me a better chance to see the entire war out instead of a single all in on France in 1940. This is not interesting to me.

[sillyflower]

In relation to the issue I raised in this thread, you are correct which is why I have a self-imposed limit, and I don't play axis so I'm not a victim here. You only need 1 house rule, or in-game rule change, to limit size of BEF in France. No other HRs or game changes needed.

I will try the '40 scenario tho' as you make a good case for it. Anyone interested nazi can PM or email me.

[stjeand]

I will gladly play a 40 with you Silly...just let me know.

[stjeand]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

As things presently stand, I repeat: I wont' be playing the 39 scenario anymore. Not without a host of house rules. At which point, why bother? There is a 1940 scenario right there waiting to be played that will give me a better chance to see the entire war out instead of a single all in on France in 1940. This is not interesting to me.

I plan to try this...some interesting notes for the 40 campaign.

The BOA looks pretty bad for the Axis. They need to sink a massive amount of MM with a smaller navy. Not sure that is even possible before and the Allies will be able to add small amounts because of their already swelling ranks. I will rely on a few games to say but then I am not a good test for that. I go very lightly in the BOA because my naval luck is horrible in 80% of my games.

USSR has some impressive units that they would not have normally. I have not check unit count...but having a 50% experience Mech to start is pretty nice. They will be behind in other places I am sure...but so is the Axis.

Everyone is on the ground floor with research. I guess no one wins or loses overall.

Germany should be able to take France as they normally do...and maybe even get to play a little in Africa.
The games I have been playing against Silly the Axis seems to only be able to defend in Africa. The Axis can't field the 6 corps needs to put up much a fight against they 8 to 10 the Allies have. But I need a new strategy there to make it more fun.

[stjeand]

To add...

Italy is is rough shape. Basically did nothing for 6 months.

France got some units and funny that one is a 1940 Assault yet they don't have 40 tech yet. Interesting.

[ComadrejaKorp]

Not true, there is all sorts of strategy

What you say is as true as what I say, it is undeniable that you lose a year of preparing any strategy, so if possible I prefer to fix scenario 39, if not, we will have to choose your logical choice.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: stjeand

To add...

Italy is is rough shape. Basically did nothing for 6 months.

France got some units and funny that one is a 1940 Assault yet they don't have 40 tech yet. Interesting.

All UK air units are 1939 tech. All UK corps in France are 1939 Assault.
Same for France Corps all 1939 tech except one. One French tactical is 1940 Close Support? Strange.

Another reason to reduce labs of UK and France in the Europe 1939 scenario imo.

[kennonlightfoot]

I am running a short hot seat test to see what happens in France.
It looks like the Germans can field 5 Armor, 1 Mechanized and 5 Subs by May 40. They probably need to stop producing units that would appear after that in order to concentrate on getting enough Truck Supply.
I was able to get the following into France by May:
French: 1 Armor, 6 Inf Corp (40%), 7 Small Inf Corp (40%), 5 Inf Corps (50%), Mtn Unit, 5 Inf Div
British: 2 Armor, 1 Mech, 4 Inf Corps, 2 Small Inf Corps.
Plus all the air power either in France or Southern Englad.

I suspect by careful attacking and resupplying the German can get to Paris but with a lot of loses but I am still testing this and it is difficult to be sure the results are valid since I am playing both sides.

I was able to take both Netherlands and Belgium on the May 10 turn with this size German force.

There is also the question of whether this kind of Battle of France will have long term effects that make it bad or good. The UK once France is lost is going to be in very bad shape. While I created the UK force above while still having division size units in Middle East and the UK, I doubt they can stop any serious attack by the Germans. The question is do the Germans have enough time to follow through while the UK is weak?

In my test game Italy is gearing up for a quick strike by landings and Libya against Egypt.
If the UK loses the Middle East and maybe Gibralta would this cancel any gain from the Germans having to make a weak invasion of Russia or even wait until 42?

[ComadrejaKorp]

Personally I believe that the Middle East can be defended well even if it sends many units to France, Uk can also defend itself quite well only with divisions and its fleet, it can also withdraw troops from France in case this happens, and in case of an invasion I imagine that it would only lose the south by creating another front to Axis and would accelerate the US entry into the war.

The big problem with this strategy is BoA, if Germany bets hard here, UK will have problems, but not insurmountable.

The problem is that Germany is so damaged in the French campaign (if it manages to finish it) that it will not be able to attack the Middle East with force in 40 or make a strong Barbarrossa in 41.

[AlvaroSousa]

You can't do everything and need to possibly change your plans.

What are the German losses by the end of France and when does it fall by?

[ComadrejaKorp]

If it falls it will be at the end of August at the earliest or September, although it is very possible that it will not fall.
And if it falls, Germany will have lost at least a couple of tanks and a couple of troops, with casualties of approximately 300/400 and 150 in aviation.

Today begins the French campaign in games mirrors vs Stjeand and game vs NCC, all with AAR in progress, I hope these clarify what is the problem and if it exists or not.