How to ruin the game?

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willgamer
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RE: How to ruin the game?

Post by willgamer »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

...

The answer to cheese is not more cheese. Just say no.

39 scenario is broken.

In one sense, the 39 scenario is not broken. It's strong evidence of what could have happened except that it was politically impossible.

The British populace and politicians would never have allowed the island to be stripped of defenses, much less agreeing to do away with their life supporting convoys.

On the other hand for the Germans, disbanding large numbers of armaments and redeploying them is neither realistic or practicable in as short a period of time as allowed in the game.

However, as Flaviusx stated, it is broken as a game.

IMHO, it's not fixable short of adding real world restrictions to what could have been done.
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RE: How to ruin the game?

Post by Harrybanana »

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Is this the official or the beta?

Official. I suggest we have to wait until enough people have played the beta to say if Alvaro's fix has resolved the problem or not.
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RE: How to ruin the game?

Post by Harrybanana »

ORIGINAL: willgamer

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

...

The answer to cheese is not more cheese. Just say no.

39 scenario is broken.

In one sense, the 39 scenario is not broken. It's strong evidence of what could have happened except that it was politically impossible.

The British populace and politicians would never have allowed the island to be stripped of defenses, much less agreeing to do away with their life supporting convoys.

On the other hand for the Germans, disbanding large numbers of armaments and redeploying them is neither realistic or practicable in as short a period of time as allowed in the game.

However, as Flaviusx stated, it is broken as a game.

IMHO, it's not fixable short of adding real world restrictions to what could have been done.

No one has yet tried to use the All-In defence on me, but I have tried it myself (see my AAR with Hadros). Although Hadros lost 2 armour, 1 Mechanized and an infantry corps in France, I don't consider the game over yet. Even if I go on to win this game I personally would not consider the 39 scenario broken unless and until someone uses it on me.

To me whether the game is broken or not depends on several factors including:

1. How many units the Germans lose in France,
2. How many units the UK loses in France, and
3. How successful the BOA is as a consequence of the Brits not building escorts or MS in the early game.

If the UK is sufficiently weakened in France then even if the Germans take exceptional losses they will still be able to field a sizeable army for Barbarossa because they will not need as many units to defend in the West. Alternatively, they could simply invade a weakened England in 41 and leave Russia for 42.

If the 39 scenario is broken than my suggestions to fix it are:

1. Change it so that shattered units are not permanently destroyed but return like overrun air units.
2. Increase the effectiveness of air units. Since the Germans have more and better bombers this will help them in France.
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RE: How to ruin the game?

Post by ncc1701e »

One suggestion for a better France 1940. Historically, once the front was broken, it was very difficult to establish a new defensive line for the French. Right now, the Germans are exhausting themselves to destroy all these French corps.

What I am suggesting is to allow French to buy only armies or divisions. All the on-map units at the beginning of 1939 are either converted to armies or divisions. There is no possibility to merge French division into corps. French armies can't be splitted. And we increase the price of the French armies.

This way, French will have less units and the gamey ant tactic will end. But we can still allow a French armored corps.

Any objection?
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RE: How to ruin the game?

Post by Nirosi »

It could help. Worth a try certainly. I also like to allows the option for the French armor to exist the same way as for the German CV (among other examples) if a player so wishes as long as there is a reasonable opportunity cost.
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RE: How to ruin the game?

Post by sillyflower »

As I wrote initially, France '40 seems to be well-balanced when BEF commitment is reasonable, and I believe that is accepted. Certainly I don't think anyone has argued otherwise on this thread. Therefore, changes to weaken UK and France are going to make '40 a german walkover which will unbalance the game yet again for folk like me who don't use the 'all-in' exploit.

Am I right or wrong?
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RE: How to ruin the game?

Post by AlvaroSousa »

Some of you need to try the beta then.
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RE: How to ruin the game?

Post by Flaviusx »

My own house rule for 39 scenario now: no more than 6 UK ground units in France before 1941. And that includes the HQ, so really it is 5 actual ground units. (If the British leave the HQ in the UK they cannot properly extend coverage in the hot zone east of Paris.) The British can still go mech heavy with this, but after reviewing the AARs I think that a properly executed all in needs 8+ UK ground units. The French infantry melts away fairly quickly and the British really need to throw in 5+ infantry corps to do a true all in. Otherwise they risk losing the BEF if they stick around too long.

The other fixes suggested are all weird and convoluted and don't get at the basic problem: the BEF needs to be limited in size in 1940. Fix that, and the problem is solved.
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RE: How to ruin the game?

Post by sillyflower »

Exactly!
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RE: How to ruin the game?

Post by AlvaroSousa »

In the beta the UK is reduced by 100 strength. I am considering adding an Italian modifier too like for the French. If Egypt has less than X units Italy can DOW.

OR you can just play the Italian Option with the current Beta campaign and that should also fix it.
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RE: How to ruin the game?

Post by Harrybanana »

I am not convinced that there is a problem. In my AAR with Hadros he lost 2 armour, a mechanized and an infantry corps and he seems to be doing just fine. Has anyone playing the Axis who had this happen to them actually played out the game? Or did everyone else just giveup?
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RE: How to ruin the game?

Post by ComadrejaKorp »

If Egypt has less than X units Italy can DOW.

I don't think this will help, from Egypt only the tank is withdrawn, and it is usually reinforced with infantry.
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RE: How to ruin the game?

Post by stjeand »

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

I am not convinced that there is a problem. In my AAR with Hadros he lost 2 armour, a mechanized and an infantry corps and he seems to be doing just fine. Has anyone playing the Axis who had this happen to them actually played out the game? Or did everyone else just giveup?


I don't think there is an issue until Russia...missing 3 armor / mech is a pretty big deal. I have been reading your AAR and that is about 30% of this armor.


Considering prior to the France all in...no armor / mech was lost that I saw and I am assuming the game was pretty even...one has to imagine that losing that much will have a major future effect unless that Axis is able to do a bunch of damage to the UK.

I could be wrong.

Most of the games I played with this tactic was when I was a newer play as were my opponents, other than ComadrejaKorp (and these were just tests) all ended because the Axis player either lost all their armor / mech or failed to take France in 40.
NOW keep in mind they were not as experience as you, Hadros or ComadrejaKorp...but that is still an issue in my eyes.

Honestly I will just play with a smaller BEF for now...even with the possible forthcoming changes.

I just wanted to look out for newer players that don't read this forum and want to play not knowing that this could be an issue. It is pretty disheartening to get crushed as the Axis by the French / UK in 1940.
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RE: How to ruin the game?

Post by AlvaroSousa »

One other change I am considering is also allow Italy to DOW in May 1940 and removing the Paris requirement. That would replicate that the UK did have some fear if they moved too many troops that Italy might declare war on them. But this adjustment also prevents an early steamroll.
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RE: How to ruin the game?

Post by Harrybanana »

ORIGINAL: stjeand
ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

I am not convinced that there is a problem. In my AAR with Hadros he lost 2 armour, a mechanized and an infantry corps and he seems to be doing just fine. Has anyone playing the Axis who had this happen to them actually played out the game? Or did everyone else just giveup?


I don't think there is an issue until Russia...missing 3 armor / mech is a pretty big deal. I have been reading your AAR and that is about 30% of this armor.


Considering prior to the France all in...no armor / mech was lost that I saw and I am assuming the game was pretty even...one has to imagine that losing that much will have a major future effect unless that Axis is able to do a bunch of damage to the UK.

I could be wrong.

Most of the games I played with this tactic was when I was a newer play as were my opponents, other than ComadrejaKorp (and these were just tests) all ended because the Axis player either lost all their armor / mech or failed to take France in 40.
NOW keep in mind they were not as experience as you, Hadros or ComadrejaKorp...but that is still an issue in my eyes.

Honestly I will just play with a smaller BEF for now...even with the possible forthcoming changes.

I just wanted to look out for newer players that don't read this forum and want to play not knowing that this could be an issue. It is pretty disheartening to get crushed as the Axis by the French / UK in 1940.

If you are reading the AARs you will also know that he has as many armour as I do in our mirror game (more now actually). You will have to ask Hadros how he accomplished this while also building more U-Boats. I assume some of it was by not building any German air units at all and not even replacing all of his air losses.

Even before the All-In strategy developed it was common for the Germans to lose at least one mobile unit in France. In my mirror games with Magic Missile (see the AARS) we each lost 1 Mechanized in France. Although we didn't finish the game MM emailed me that he planned on having something like 15 mobile units for Barbarossa.
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RE: How to ruin the game?

Post by Nirosi »

ut this adjustment also prevents an early steamroll.

I am not sure I understand. You mean a steamroll by Axis? Or a Allied steamroll against Italy?
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RE: How to ruin the game?

Post by Nirosi »

Never mind. I understand from another post. My bad!
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RE: How to ruin the game?

Post by CreamyGoodness »

I'll preface my remarks with the admission that I haven't played Warplan (though it looks interesting) so my suggestions may be bogus.
ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa
One other change I am considering is also allow Italy to DOW in May 1940 and removing the Paris requirement.

Mussolini didn't join the war until the defeat of France was inevitable, so it would not be realistic for him to join the war when the defeat of France seemed even more remote (because of the all-in strategy).

I offer the following alternative for consideration ...

The Germans were slow to build up war production. The easy victory over France would have led to some complacency. If the campaign in France had been more difficult then they may have gotten more serious earlier. One way to counter the all-in strategy would be to advance the economy multiplier for the German economy (or similar) if the French campaign is long and difficult. This would allow any otherwise game-losing, excessive German losses to be replaced.

The obvious measure of "difficult" is the time of the fall of France, but tying an advance to the German economy to that puts the Allied player in a conflicted position of having to deliberately play badly so that France doesn't hold out too long. The maximum achieved size of the BEF above some suitable threshold might be a better measure. A larger BEF would be expected to lengthen the campaign. The Allied player decides the size of the BEF and hence the adjustment to the German economy. After that they are free to hold France as long as they can.

Players that choose a historically sized BEF (under the threshold) won't be affected. Players that go for the all-in strategy will find it less effective in the long run. The relationship between BEF size and German economy advancement could be chosen to be balanced (commensurate to the average German losses) or punishing to make the all-in strategy not worth pursuing (after all it would have been politically impossible, if not infeasible).

An important consideration is what constitutes the BEF. I initially thought of counting the British forces in metropolitan France, but that wouldn't prevent some gamey workarounds, like hiding the BEF in the Low Countries, invading northern Germany or Denmark, garrisoning French territories with British units so the French units could move to France, or ganging up on Italy. I think it would have to be all British land and air units not in Britain and British/Commonwealth controlled territories.

Ultimately, the all-in strategy would have been politically untenable so it would be better IMO if the game could capture the consequences somehow. I also suspect it would not have been possible to build up a large army in the time available by neglecting the navy and air force - just as a shipyard can't suddenly make tanks, an air training school can't suddenly churn out artillerymen.

I'm with Harrybanana in thinking that air power isn't as effective as it should be. The consequences of neglecting the air force should be greater. I expect neglecting shipping would have led to critical shortages in Britain which would be reflected in the effectiveness of the army and the morale of the nation. Churchill would likely be dumped as prime minister and Britain would have sued for peace. Having Britain drop out of the war if the BoA goes very badly would be a powerful incentive to not neglect the navy, and curtail the all-in strategy to a degree.
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RE: How to ruin the game?

Post by AlvaroSousa »

Air power is fine. The 1st hit from a tactical bomber vs a 100% effectiveness unit is 14% in 1939. That's pretty good. This isn't even counting the real damage on the unit which translates to about an additional 3% loss in combat strength.

Then the ground support is about 2/3rds a full strength unit.

The "Big BEF" strategy is unavoidable. I can lock units in place like CEaW does but not going to. There are other things I can do like give Germany more supply trucks, reduce French armor Opts like I did with Russia, lower French infantry Opts to slow them down better representing their lack of communications, Lower UK armor and mech opts till say late 1940.

In the beta the UK forces are now back to absolute historical. Someone needs to play that scenario to see if those modifications are enough. Until then I can't make further ones. You do this in small steps. But with the 1.00.10 changes at least the Russian front is more stable which is the most important.

I might just give more supply trucks to the Germans anyways. They had so much ammunition they could supply the army for the whole war.
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RE: How to ruin the game?

Post by sillyflower »

With respect, Alvaro, The 'Big BEF' strategy is very easy to avoid. There aren't any complaints about balance with a 'normal' BEF. If you make changes that have the effect of nerfing a 'normal' BEF as well in order to deal with the BEF problem highlighted in this thread, then I might as well give up. I should clarify that the UK start reduction that is being tested is not something that I oppose as long as testing doesn't unbalance the game for mere mortals like me.
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