Russia...some issues to address

[stjeand]

Sadly my first go got deleted...
Keep in mind I have been playing this game for what...3 to 4 years?

Russia is still a huge issue in my eyes, and keep in mind I play the Axis 75% of the time...perhaps a few small tweaks in a new scenario built off of the Harsh Winter which for me is a requirement to play.

1. Supply sources. Russia has only 2 outside of the Urals...which I don't even count to be honest. Moscow and Stalingrad...in fact once Moscow's resources move the supply point appears to disappear. That at least needs to be fixed. To add I think Russia, being the largest location needs a few more supply locations. Suggestions...Kiev, Kursk and one in the north somewhere, Minsk or Kalinin...This would help with units being surrounded and overrun in a few localized areas...

2. Russian unit cost. Armies cost 180...which is the same cost at every other country pays but require 36 manpower...I like the uniqueness BUT if an army costs 180 / 36 = 5. That is what infantry should cost. So a small corps for Russia should only cost 100 rather than 120. IF they could build half armies, which would be HUGE, they would only cost 90. This could allow them to have maybe 5 to 8 more corps at the beginning of the war. That can make a huge difference, even though they are not the best units.
In theory that should mean Russian armor and mech would cost less...armor being 330 and mech being 270 but for me that could be something that is held off on. Most games I have played...Russian units were always inferior yet cost less to compensate them for that.
This could coincide with the unpopular decision to change experience to 35% instead of 40%...IF the cost for all units is lowered.

3. Russian infantry artillery...in my testing Russian attacks are horrific for the Russians. They lose 50 to 75% of them 2 and 3 to 1...where other countries win 80 to 90% of them. Honestly I was lost as to why this is...until I remembered they have 1 less artillery for their amies...which honestly I am not sure why that is the case. If anything Russian units had more artillery than any other country...Perhaps they should start with the same amount and even gain 1 point in 43...if they can live that long...or just gain the point in 43 so that they are even with others.

4. Weather...please...PLEASE remove cold turns...and this is coming from a player who LOVES to play the Axis. Those turns in April or October, November, even December are often game changing. Just switch them to rain at the very least.

5. Forming armies...I have played games where I do not bother to repair my corps...why? Well the Russians desperately need useful units as quickly at possible and they are cannon fodder. Meant to die but wear down German units. The only thing that will make the difference are armies. So I try to build one per turn...with the Russians receiving 40+ MP I could not for the life of me figure out why the manpower dropped so horribly until I noticed that forming armies take manpower. IF that can be removed...I would suggest is. Russia will still run out of manpower but at least make it to 43 before...The recent game I won as the Russian required me to build an army at least every turn and by early 43 my manpower was below 50%...which is HOW it should be. BUT tI think I only won because I invaded Germany and France in 42 and held.
I suggest adding some manpower to the Russians either each turn or late 1940 to compensate them for the cost and give them a small bonus. Germany already gets a CRAZY amount and honestly...I don't think I ever needed it until 1944...So the influx should be removed for them early in the war.

I am sure others have more ideas and I welcome them.

But at the very lease please fix supply and weather...
I would love to see the small corps change also...

I could personally add the supply and small corps change but don't have access to mess with the weather.

[AlvaroSousa]

#1 I believe the Russians also have the Urals. But I will look into supply locations

#2 The corps costs are because they were just like European powers until they were DOWed on then realized they can't operate with this kind of unit. So they reorganized into smaller divisions in armies. Their pre DOW units were the same as the Western allies yet crappier.

#3 While the Russians had more artillery pieces, the Germans fired 8x as many shells. That's why their artillery sucks. They did concentrate on mass later in the war but their problem was ammunition not guns. A gun without bullets it just a paperweight.

#4 I can reduce the # of cold turns or maybe apply some penalty to weather and supply.

#5 You are not supposed to build those units in general. The system encourages you to buy new armies.

[stjeand]

1. I did forget to mention the Urals but honestly if they are using that...it is over.

2. Yes I understand...though they need more units yet can't get them since they are stuck needing 180 points to build anything. As I said Russian infantry in nearly every war game I played were worse, but also always cost less. So it was a suggestion since there is no way to build half armies which many times is all they can afford...then they have to wait 2 turns to get a unit. Perhaps Armies should be done away with and move to 12 str divisions and 24 str small corps for Russia...that way they can build something when they desperately need something. But again...Russian manpower is cheaper...so that was my point to the cost difference. This would give the Russians maybe a 6 to 10 more units to start the war with...and that could make all the difference in the world. The problem is IF the Russians build 1 unit per turn as you say they should...by 43...manpower is gone. I am normally at about 50% by then...

3. I am confident that was all early in the war...as 43 and 44 hit...Russia has more and more munitions and Germany had less and less...That was why I suggested Russia may gain the Artillery in 43...though in my current game it does not matter since they have already lost and won't make it to 43.

4. Understood. Just trying to stop the single game changing turns that pop up...not that I like "knowing" the weather...but a random cold turn in the December of 42 can easily mean a complete Russian Collapse.

5. Right...I don't want to build the lousy corps BUT Russian can't build armies until they are at war. IF they wait they will use ALL their manpower and be in horrible shape since it will take at least until June for those units to arrive...and by then the Germans are far past Kiev and rolling on Moscow that just received a whole bunch of new weak armies to defend. Maybe I would try to just build armor...but what that usually means is Russia does not have enough units to cover their lines...which is why they need the weak infantry.
Just another thing to try...but early...having 3 units is always better than 1 strong at a river...

I am starting to think of a few more things...

1. Should armor have a retreat bonus attacking across a river? I don't think so...since they struggle to cross. Perhaps that should be reduced...then again maybe it is and I don't know it. Should armor have the retreat bonus in the mountains? Again maybe that is accounted for but I suspect not. Just a few air units and armor and a river crossing is imminent.

2. Perhaps Russian winterized units should not be affected by winter movement...There are few though so I am not sure that would actually help much...since when summer comes the Winterized bonus is a huge drawback so I dislike adding the ability to my units except in an emergency.

3. Maybe rail cannot be repaired in rain / heavy rains / snow / blizzards...not sure this would have much of an effect but it may slow the Germans a bit in Russia...they have no supply issues after each winter...even though they did in reality.


I am not sure the game is playable for higher skilled players at least at the moment.
I am trying to find a way that Russia can make it past 42...and I just don't see it yet.
I have only lost the game as the Germans once in the past few years...and that was when I attacked the best player in 1942...not 41...I owned Portugal and Spain...it was too much to defend.
I will keep testing Russian strategies to see if there is one that can possibly allow them to make it to 43 west of the Volga. I just wish it did not take a months work to get to even start testing...and have it all blow up because April and October are fully clear months or something just crazy like that. It ends up being a wasted test.

[stjeand]

Another thought...

Remove partisan units. They do nothing honestly.
BUT take the partisans that cut rail now and spawn a 1 str unit with 0 attack, 0 defense and 0 movement and 2 supply. The unit will die if attacked and at least cut the lines for 3 turns if left alone at least...rather than 1.

Germany is only supposed to be able to repair 1 line but they can actually repair well over a dozen per turn...which is pretty high.

I used to play a game that the Germans had 3 rail conversion units...and they moved 1 hex per turn, unless by rail, repairing one hex per turn. It forced the Germans to slow their advance because they could run out of supply.

Most of these are pretty small changes...so should not heavily affect the game but might be enough to slow German progreess.

[ncc1701e]

3. I am confident that was all early in the war...as 43 and 44 hit...Russia has more and more munitions and Germany had less and less...That was why I suggested Russia may gain the Artillery in 43...though in my current game it does not matter since they have already lost and won't make it to 43.

Organisation was changed to. Something that is not reflected.
https://tmg110.tripod.com/RedA6.htm

[ncc1701e]

USSR once again, my favorite topic. The three main problems for me:

1. The map

The quest of balance can only be done on a real map of USSR. Moscow is completely off and with it, we have Tula, Rzhev, Kalinin, Kaluga, Kursk, Orel, Velikie luki, Novgorod. Even Magnitogorsk is 11 hexes on the west compared to reality.

How do you want to balance a game where the German army is powerful because he does not have to push far east and extend inside USSR? Germany don't have to call the minors (Romania, Hungary, Italy) to man the frontline. They have plenty of corps to do it itself.

It’s the map that makes or breaks a game for me.


2. Oil Use

One of the major miss of the game is that oil use always remains the same whatever the technology level. This is completely unrealistic. So a Tiger corps is consuming the same amount of oil than a Pz II corps. Never the Pz corps are out of oil doing whatever they like behind the frontline.

The game engine does not allow to increase oil use with technology level alas.


3. The Red Army

Where is the regeneration of the Red Army?

Manpower is a problem. Production is a problem. Armies are not coming fast enough because they are too costly or USSR don't have enough production, as you wish. Not possible to buy small armies.

Corps are not all automatically converted to armies after a certain amount of time. So you are obliged to disband them, not always possible depending on your frontline.

In the game, a shock army is exactly the same than a regular army. A guard army is exactly the same than a regular army.
This is just a name. This is funny. I am sure that Triandafillov and Tukhachevsky would not agree.

Russian experience is increasing only by taking losses. As such, you are losing again manpower just to train your troops.

Barbarossa is so unrealistic. This was a bloody fight not a big retreat. 1 million victims (dead, injured, missing) on Axis side (900 000 Germans). We are not there at all. Axis losses are minimal.

There is the same problem with some other wargames or even boardgames. Since this is hard for players (or the game system) to reach the historical frontline end of 1941, you are artificially reducing the quality of the Red Army to reach your goals. The problem of Red Army in 1941 was mainly linked to C&C not to their soldiers.

The fact that there is no stacking also obliges simplification. But, as such, it creates a scale problem. Too many corps on both sides, Germany in particular.


4. Supply

Supply is an issue. I won't bring back old posts on the subject. A real supply depot and supply net is a big lack in the game. You must read Aleksandr Svechin, its Strategy book. The goals of operations give keys to this. Above suggestion of supply sources is a good idea but I hope it won't help the Axis later on.


Conclusion

Right now, I prefer to play GMT The Dark Valley. Very good in solo. Barbarossa is hard for the Germans. And, you have everything at a good scale. WITE2 is too complicated imo. There is room to do something at an intermediate level what GMT The Dark Valley is perfectly doing. Warplan is too simplified, it was its goal but it fails in USSR.

For the Soviets, you have:
Rifle divisions, no rifle corps, early mech corps, early tank corps (not all the mech/tank corps are rated the same), an elegant abtraction of tank brigades, cavalry corps, infantry armies, shock armies, and later, guards rifle corps, guards cavalry corps, guards tank corps, guards mech corps, guards rifle armies, artillery abtraction at front level, guards tank armies.

For the Germans, you have:
Infantry division, infantry corps, assault guns in support, motorized infantry division, Panzer Grenadier division, Panzer division, Panzer abteilung, SS motorized infantry division, SS Panzer division.

There are no Panzer/Panzer Grenadier corps because you can stack several Panzer divisions or Panzer Grenadier divisions. And honestly this is much more like history. Divisions were grouped together in corps on very specific occasions. This is where the lack of stacking is an issue.

Anyhow, the engine won't allow this. Looks like this is impossible to create new types of unit to bring all this diversity.

Back to The Dark Valley...

[ncc1701e]

Have a look at the differences in term of numbers between an infantry army, a shock army and a guard rifle corps. Also, a guard rifle corps has no ZOC. A reduced infantry army has no ZOC. But a reduced shock army still have a ZOC.

---

Dark Valley 1.JPG (145.9 KiB) Viewed 1862 times

---

Dark Valley 2.JPG (191.45 KiB) Viewed 1862 times

[ncc1701e]

Have a look at the differences between a guard rifle corps, a guard rifle army and a guard tank corps. A Soviet tank corps has no ZOC but a reduced guard rifle army has a ZOC. Same for a reduced guard tank army that has a ZOC.

See the artillery unit attached at the 2nd Ukraine front level.

Great game.

---

Dark Valley 3.JPG (228.52 KiB) Viewed 1861 times

[topolm]

Right now, I prefer to play GMT The Dark Valley. Very good in solo. Barbarossa is hard for the Germans. And, you have everything at a good scale. WITE2 is too complicated imo.

You can also play less complicated WITE1

[stjeand]

I have cats...therefore board games are decimated by feline Kaiju's the moment they appear.

[MagicMissile]

Looks like a nice boardgame . I miss those but in many ways I prefer the computer variant.

Concerning the Soviets I think the winter road in Leningrad should be a year around supply source. Otherwise if Leningrad does not fall in 41 it will be guaranteed to fall in 42. At least this forces the Germans to fight to the road hex making it a little bit more uncertain.

/MM

[canuckgamer]

My friend and I played Dark Sands which came out after Dark Valley and covers the campaign in North Africa from 1940-42. Not sure I am that keen on the chit system.

Stejand, do you know about Vassal which has cyber modules of pretty well every boardgame ever released? It allows you to play those games virtually either online or PBEM. Vassal and the modules are free and my friends and I have used it for years. Works for me as I can't have a boardgame set up on my dining room table for months.

https://vassalengine.org/

[stjeand]

My friend and I played Dark Sands which came out after Dark Valley and covers the campaign in North Africa from 1940-42. Not sure I am that keen on the chit system.

Stejand, do you know about Vassal which has cyber modules of pretty well every boardgame ever released? It allows you to play those games virtually either online or PBEM. Vassal and the modules are free and my friends and I have used it for years. Works for me as I can't have a boardgame set up on my dining room table for months.

https://vassalengine.org/

Thank canuckgamer...I have played a game on vassal.

Maybe when I retire I will have more time to play more board games.

[MorningDew]

For the boardgame feel, check out Tabletop Simulator

[generalfdog]

my wish list for the east is #1 Russia forward deployment, I think there should be something either encourages or forces USSR to do a more historical forward deployment. #2 Leningrad MUST be fixed it always falls now road of life needs to be year round or just make Leningrad a supply source. #3 increase Soviet production and manpower late 42 onwards if Germany doesn't conquer major objectives like Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, probably 2 of those to avoid production increase, Germany needs to be forced to go for broke like they did historically otherwise they can just sit back and the whole theater becomes a boring stalemate. #4 make it so Moscow doesn't move until 42 encouraging Germany to go for it in 41

[stjeand]

Sadly there are other issues...

Unless the Allies invade France Germany has to many armor to stop. 20+ armor in 42 can't be stopped by the Russians. Oil needs to be more limited. Ploesti needs to be changed to a 30 and maybe one less synthetic fuel location.
By the end of 41 Germany is low on oil...but they are in decent shape by the start of 42 and rarely have an issue.

River crossings need to be more difficult and have a movement cost. Most of the Dnieper is extremely wide and armor could not cross it other than at roads. Which would be interesting. Armor should also lose its retreat effect at river crossings.

March, April, October, November and December can NOT have clear / cold weather. It has to be rain. Add to that May should likely be rain in Russia. Germany did not attack until late June in 40...I have had games where Germany gets 5 extra turns...they normally get 3. That changes the game completely.

Rail repair in heavy rain, snow and blizzards should be stopped...and perhaps even slowed in rain. It is to easy to fix rail in Russia...they have no issues with supply at all.

I would rather have the Russians get all corps converted to half armies say turn 1 of the war...not that it would make a huge difference, but I have had corps around in 1944...Russian air and infantry cost less than the Allies / Axis...odd that their armor and mech costs the same.

Russia just needs more production overall...could start appearing in 42...though they have to live that long.

[AlvaroSousa]

2 things were modified in the coming path which has been sent off.

#1 Russia should have their whole corp force converted by 1942. There was a tiny chance per turn, now it is 20%.

#2 there are no more clear turns in November. Clear has been replaced by snow.

[canuckgamer]

In addition to not getting the "no zoc cost" when the defender is attacked across a river hexside I think it should also be negated when the defender was in a city hex or terrain such as forest, marsh and mountains.

The winterization specialization should be revised. The Siberian units that have it make zero difference because there are only 4 of them and I very rarely use it on a unit because it is only a benefit for a few turns each year. Additionally, units move slower in snow turns further diluting the impact of winterization. Maybe all Russian units should be have some type of winterization for combat and movement.

Russia is still too weak and what happened in our PBEM games was the western allies were compelled to conduct invasions as early as 1942 to try and relieve some of the pressure on the USSR. However we found that these invasions were crushed easily by the Germans by railing a few panzer corps to the invasion site.

The only way the Allies can win WP is by taking all the German production/resource centres which means the Russians need to have the capability to go on the offensive and advance from the east. Currently, they can't even survive.

[ncc1701e]

River crossings need to be more difficult and have a movement cost. Most of the Dnieper is extremely wide and armor could not cross it other than at roads. Which would be interesting. Armor should also lose its retreat effect at river crossings.

The position of the rivers are not accurate. And, there are missing rivers too in Russia. More rivers mean a more difficult advance even for armor. For the Dnieper, it is possible to play with small lakes to simulate a more difficult crossing.

But we come back to the subject of the map which is a taboo subject.

---

Rivers.JPG (80.91 KiB) Viewed 1490 times

[ncc1701e]

2 things were modified in the coming path which has been sent off.

#1 Russia should have their whole corp force converted by 1942. There was a tiny chance per turn, now it is 20%.

#2 there are no more clear turns in November. Clear has been replaced by snow.

Seriously Alvaro. There is a lack of ground units for USSR vs a good German player. And you are giving us a month of snow and half armies taken from the decimated corps force. This is not more units in any way.

I understand you do not want to touch to the manpower and production in order to not break anything else. But, AGAIN, there is a lack of ground units for USSR. When you have 20 panzer corps in the same area, this is super hard to counter.

I have already suggested to put 10 more armies in the Deployment queue. 5 forming like the others and 5, the five Shock armies with their historical starting dates and 50% experience. This gives more land units without destabilizing existing manpower and production.

And for increasing the losses of the German units, you can also do small things like adding these three events:

//USSR armies are upgraded with the introduction of Tank Brigades
$ChangeUnitAttributes
if_Date=9/1/1941
if_Country=4
if_Alliance=Allies
lifespan=tillTrigger
targetCountry=4
unitID=4
stats=36,4,2,2,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,4,5,1,60,180,1,1
text=The USSR continues to reorganize their military introducting Tank Brigades inside their armies due to the failure of existing Mechanized corps organization. Tanks and Oil Use are increased by 1.
addReportTo=Allies
$End

The following is from the vanilla version but I am keeping it here by event execution time order

//USSR air units increase in values as 1933 I-15s and I-16s are replaced with modern aircraft in 1942
$ChangeUnitAttributes
if_Date=1/1/1942
lifespan=tillTrigger
targetCountry=4
unitID=11
stats=20,0,0,0,0,7,2,0,1,0,1,2,7,2,6,180,180,1,1
text=The USSR replaces obsolete fighters in noticable amounts. Air combat is increased to 7 and defense to 6 for air superiority groups.
$End

//USSR armies are upgraded with the introduction of Katyusha rocket artillery
$ChangeUnitAttributes
if_Date=2/1/1942
if_Country=4
if_Alliance=Allies
lifespan=tillTrigger
targetCountry=4
unitID=4
stats=36,4,2,3,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,4,5,1,60,180,1,1
text=USSR military introduces new Katyusha rocket artillery separate units in all existing infantry armies enhancing their indirect firepower. Artillery is increased by 1.
addReportTo=Allies
$End

//USSR armies are upgraded with the introduction of penal battalions
$ChangeUnitAttributes
if_Date=7/28/1942
if_Country=4
if_Alliance=Allies
lifespan=tillTrigger
targetCountry=4
unitID=4
stats=36,4,2,3,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,5,5,1,60,180,1,1
text=Defense Order N°227, Ni Shagu Nazad! (Not a Step Back!), aimed primarily at officers and policital commissars, was issued by Stalin to prevent any further unauthorized retreat. USSR infantry army units gain +1 defense.
addReportTo=Allies
$End

Read carefully what generalfdog is saying above:
"Germany needs to be forced to go for broke like they did historically otherwise they can just sit back and the whole theater becomes a boring stalemate"

He is right. Once you have been decimated as Soviets in 1941, the right strategy for the Germans is just to remain dig in. They are strong. They have plenty of manpower by events. The Russian units are weak; their experience is barely 40%. So, they explode themselves literally on a wall to increase their experience. And they are losing tons of manpower in the process. Never, Never, NEVER, there is an improvment in their organisation, TO&E, units that can help them to break the German line. The three above events is there exactly to help them to get out of the status quo.

On the other side, never there is a need for the Germans to push to the Caucasus to try to capture oil fields, NEVER. As it was said above in this thread, they have plenty of oil, plenty. So why should they continue to advance in USSR as Germans? There is no need. Germans are resisting any assault, entrenched on their lines, literally.

Such as I have done above in one of the events, you could increase the oil consumption of the Axis armor units starting 1941 or 1942 because of the upgrades. A Panzer IV is consuming more than a Panzer II. A Panther is consuming more than a Panzer IV. And even, in Russia, the roads are bad. So there are more trucks used to provide supplies to German corps. There are plenty of explanation to justify such an event to increase Axis oil consumption.

The next patch will bring nothing imo. I already foresee the exact same thread about Russia.