stjeand (Allied) vs MagicMissle (Axis) NO MM for now

[canuckgamer]

Wondering if you guys are still playing this one as there hasn't been an update for 5 days. My friend and I completed three games and all of them were won by the Axis.
Although the accelerated activation of armies is a start I think there has to be some fundamental changes to the eastern front.

[stjeand]

Mid Jan 42

UK - BOA - The German surface fleet heads to the Artic due to the absence of the Royal Navy as they ready for a mass invasion of Africa. 6 MM sunk...no hits on Uboats. UK build a paratrooper.

US - Build Heavy Bomber and supply trucks

Canada - Taxes

Russia
Arctic - Blizzard...quiet
North - Blizzard...Russians shifting troops to try to hold the River and extract an armored unit.

Center - Russians counter attack, decimating a German corps...the unit retreats and the 23rd army moves in.
The trap is closing...Siberian armor shift into place. With the storms not letting up there is a chance that the Russians can close the bulge...if they do it will cripple the Wehrmacht. Russian forces ready for a massive attack in the next month.

RussiaCenterMidJan42.jpg (608.47 KiB) Viewed 1027 times

South - Russian forces shift around awaiting reinforcements...they are readying for an attack, hoping that the Weather continues to affect the German army.




Summary - On hex closer. The crippled German unit is a huge issue and allows the Russians an easy retreat unit. I would almost think about disbanding it as the Germans...but I am not them. SO close to the Rail line...and a possible cut. One Advance is being held for either an Engineer or Winter...depending upon where I need to attack.
Hoping to be able to make an attack, by Gomel and Kursk...5 more turns of good Russian weather...and the more the Germans wear down the better.

- Sorry heard that MM had an internet cut...
And in two weeks I leave for Italy, to scout out landing sites for my troops...Okay well more to drink wine and eat pasta...but I will be down by Naples so...

[stjeand]

Late Jan 42

UK - BOA - 12 MM and 3 escorts sunk...2 hits on Uboats, a brutal day in the Artic sea lane...but the US Navy gets enacts revenge on the German surface fleet. The Scharnhorst and the Schlesien are sunk by US battleships...but the Bismarck is able to evade them...The Royal airforce sends up sortie after sortie searching...and get a break as cloud coverage parts...the Bismarck is spotted and over 50 bombers are scrambled to sink it. With multiple direct hits it drops beneath the waves.
UK bombers continue to level Lille...

Africa - Operation Torch explodes...landings of UK armor and infantry as well as US armor and infantry occur in all ports other than Tunis. All ports are captured with minimal losses other than...the Royal Navy lose the cruiser York to German bombers.

UKNAMidJan42.jpg (818.91 KiB) Viewed 1023 times

US - Patton arrives in Oran...with the 2nd armored corps in Algiers.
Bombers strike at factories in Dusseldorf, hammering production.

Canada - Taxes

Russia - All Russian resources are set to resupply and reinforce units on the front lines.
Arctic - Blizzard - quiet.

North - Blizzard - The 25th armored army finally extracts itself from the front lines and is ready to move to Moscow.

Center - Blizzard - Russian units open up all along the line...A small gain is made south of Rzhev with the decimating of a German panzer corps, but the German infantry next to the city on the rail line held out long enough to wear out the Russian attacker...so they are not able to take advantage. Other locations are attacked to wear the units down. The build up at Gomel is complete...and they will load the attack any moment.

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South - Blizzard / Snow - Russian units are resupplying reading for a small offensive near Kursk. German units are wearing down due to the weather...Expected attack is February...

RussaSouthLateJan42.jpg (602.44 KiB) Viewed 1023 times

[stjeand]

Mid Feb 42

UK - BOA - 11 MM sunk, 5 hits on Uboats. Build UK Infantry corps.

US - Build tactical.

Africa - Is now clearly in allied hands. Algiers is all that remains, and US / UK armor are closing on the port. It appears that the Axis do not have the forces to support them. Tobruk is defended but not as strongly as before.

Canada - Build supply trucks.

Russia -
Arctic - Blizzard. Finnish troops seem to be getting ready for an assualt.

North - Blizzard. Russian artillery open up on multiple locations...Russians take considerable losses but are able to heavily damage multiple panzer corps but not gain any ground.

Center - Blizzard. Russians launch an attack near Gomel though are not able to push the dug in Germans back...

South - Blizzard / Snow. Another counter attack here on two German panzers...Russians take considerable losses but do weaken the German supplies.

Summary - Vichy North Africa should fall next turn unless the Germans pour in...Italy is heavily packed with German forces...Russia, time is running low for their winter offense.

[stjeand]

Late Feb 42

UK - BOA - 10mm and 1 escort sunk. 4 hits on Uboats...
Dusseldorf is hammered again...its production crippled but due to Snow in the UK for the past 2 months...air units are exhausted and will need to recover.

US - The 2nd armor and 6th infantry launch a major attack against Tunis with Royal Navy support and capture the city.

With the majority of North Africa in Allied hands, they turn their sights on Tripoli and Tobruk, to finally drive the Axis from Africa.

Russia
Arctic - Blizzard

North - Blizzard - 3 Russian armies attack a german corp on the rail line north of Kalinin...the unit holds but is heavily damaged.

Center - Blizzard - Russian Siberian armor with fresh T-34s and the highly experienced 13th Mechanized launch an offensive against a german corps just south of Rzhev...and the corps retreats...the Russians are on the verge of cutting off 5 German armored corps as well as Gerneral Kesselring...although it is not likely to occur there is a slight chance...if this were to occur it could heavily tilt the wars outcome.
Further south Russian forces are able to cross the river East of Gomel by driving back another German unit.

RussiaNorthLateFeb42.jpg (758.97 KiB) Viewed 987 times

RussiaCenterLateFeb42.jpg (570.78 KiB) Viewed 987 times

South - Blizzard / snow - Russian forces again launch an offensive against the German LVII Panzer corp well dug in east of Kursk...they are able to cause significant damage but their fighting effectiveness is now gone...they will need to be replaced in order to continue.


Summary - Time is just to short...The Russians have nearly cut the Northern army off...which is huge, but I expect the infantry to be replaced by a German armor...and then the Russians will be unable to continue. So close...But hopefully they will be able to shatter a few units in April...And next turn the Russian get 7 movement...hopefully that will catch him by surprise.
But now it the time to get dug in and repair...As well as get ready to retreat a little just before May. I do not believe the Russians still can hold. Their army is pretty large...nearly 2700 strong to the German 1900...the Germans have a few hundred in Italy...

[stjeand]

Late Feb 42

UK - BOA - 10mm and 1 escort sunk. 4 hits on Uboats...
Dusseldorf is hammered again...its production crippled but due to Snow in the UK for the past 2 months...air units are exhausted and will need to recover.

US - The 2nd armor and 6th infantry launch a major attack against Tunis with Royal Navy support and capture the city.

With the majority of North Africa in Allied hands, they turn their sights on Tripoli and Tobruk, to finally drive the Axis from Africa.

Russia
Arctic - Blizzard

North - Blizzard - 3 Russian armies attack a german corp on the rail line north of Kalinin...the unit holds but is heavily damaged.

Center - Blizzard - Russian Siberian armor with fresh T-34s and the highly experienced 13th Mechanized launch an offensive against a german corps just south of Rzhev...and the corps retreats...the Russians are on the verge of cutting off 5 German armored corps as well as Gerneral Kesselring...although it is not likely to occur there is a slight chance...if this were to occur it could heavily tilt the wars outcome.
Further south Russian forces are able to cross the river East of Gomel by driving back another German unit.

RussiaNorthLateFeb42.jpg (758.97 KiB) Viewed 986 times

South - Blizzard / snow - Russian forces again launch an offensive against the German LVII Panzer corp well dug in east of Kursk...they are able to cause significant damage but their fighting effectiveness is now gone...they will need to be replaced in order to continue.

RussiaCenterLateFeb42.jpg (570.78 KiB) Viewed 986 times

Summary - Time is just to short...The Russians have nearly cut the Northern army off...which is huge, but I expect the infantry to be replaced by a German armor...and then the Russians will be unable to continue. So close...But hopefully they will be able to shatter a few units in April...And next turn the Russian get 7 movement...hopefully that will catch him by surprise.
But now it the time to get dug in and repair...As well as get ready to retreat a little just before May. I do not believe the Russians still can hold. Their army is pretty large...nearly 2700 strong to the German 1900...the Germans have a few hundred in Italy...

[stjeand]

Mid March 42

UK - BOA - A rare quiet turn at sea...the last of the German surface fleet move out to try to intercept the US navy but neither side is able to locate the other due to weather.

US - Build Tactical

Africa - US and UK forces head full speed towards Tripoli...they expect the Italians to completely evacuate the area as hundreds of tanks roll in from the North. The UK ship some armor to Sicily to firm up their hold along with nearly 1000 inteceptors.

Russia -
Arctic - Blizzard...Quiet

North - Blizzard - The Russians launch their last offensive of the winter and in a master stroke of genius and luck, Zhukov is able to cut off a huge German army. Russian forces pour into the breach hoping to hold but that is not likely...though miracles have occurred. If anything this should heavily slow the Spring offensive. The circled unit is believed to be a fresh armored corps that recently railed out of Italy...

RussiaNorthMidMarch42.jpg (1.09 MiB) Viewed 967 times

Center - Blizzard - Russians fall back behind the River line

South - Blizzard / Cold - Dangerous...luckily no Strong units were located in the area...


Summary - Sadly the Russians have no way to hold. I believe the unit circled is a full strength armored corps...so it will be a 20 or 18 attack...which will cause major issues to the half army used to hold. IF a miracle occurs then this could doom the German 42 Spring.
At least this will cost them a lot of efficiency...maybe delay them a month or 2.

[stjeand]

Late March 42

UK - BOA - Uboats reported to be at sea...Escorts begin hunting operations. Build Ground Support

US - Build ground support and 2 LC

Germany - Strategic bombing continues...the factories at Dusseldorf are reduced to rubble...Essen is now being targeted and large fires are burning.

Africa - US and UK armor converge on Tripoli...Bombardment begins a dawn from the Royal Navy. A half dozen battleships pound the city and ports. The WDF, 8th armor and US 2nd launch a full attack on the city...the Italians are overwhelmed and surrender in just 4 days of fighting. Tobruk is being evacuated. The Allies will try to make an attack on the city when the Germans depart.

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Russia
Arctic - Blizzard. Russian units are dug in...waiting now for Spring

North - Blizzard. Units make a few attacks but now have to start to rest and recover for the Spring.

Center - Blizzard. The Russian army keeping the German forces cut is driven back with the combined attack of 3 full Armored corps. Russians counter attack...capturing a few more miles...and close to taking back Kalinin...but just not there. An armored corps is shattered, but the Russian forces are worn down...and manpower is nearing critical levels.

RussiaCenterLateMarch42.jpg (542.01 KiB) Viewed 941 times

South - Blizzard / Rain. Rain is not good...German units quickly begin to recover their supplies for the coming Spring.


Summary - the Supply cut was nice...the shattered armor was great...that will keep it out of the battle for a while. Rain in the south is not so great... There is a crazy amount of German units in Italy. I don't see an easy way through...

Russian manpower is gutted...63%...and now they are in deep trouble...they gain less than it costs them to build a unit which means it only goes down from here...the counter is Gemany is at 100% for sure and will not drop any time soon.
Working on trying to upgrade every unit I can for the next month...one clear turn could cause a major issue for both sides...Hoping for snow at least in the North and Center. NO clear April turns...that could change the entire battle.

[Nirosi]

MP is a problem for the Soviet, but in my experience, not as big as one might think. It is surprising how even at35-40% MP, the Soviet can still have "ok" units on the field. One sees the difference, but it is not an extreme difference because MP loss come with combat which means that the surviving units usually to gain XPs to partly compensate.

Of course having full XP recruits and the combat experience at the same time would be better but the Soviets can still put up a good fight even at low XP. MP is not a small problem, but I would not say it is a huge one. PPs are much more of a problem I would say...

And of course, German MP is also a problem : it is too high, especially with the events. I would lower the German one before raising the Soviet one.

[stjeand]

MP is a problem for the Soviet, but in my experience, not as big as one might think. It is surprising how even at35-40% MP, the Soviet can still have "ok" units on the field. One sees the difference, but it is not an extreme difference because MP loss come with combat which means that the surviving units usually to gain XPs to partly compensate.

Of course having full XP recruits and the combat experience at the same time would be better but the Soviets can still put up a good fight even at low XP. MP is not a small problem, but I would not say it is a huge one. PPs are much more of a problem I would say...

And of course, German MP is also a problem : it is too high, especially with the events. I would lower the German one before raising the Soviet one.

Agreed regarding the manpower...the issue is the Germans never run low unless the Allies are destroying some each turn as well as the Russians...and in 42 the Russians are mainly defending...so that is not likely.

Italy is currently a fortress...I don't see a way for the Allies to get through, at least not yet.

Right now the Russians have about 380 PP with all the Lend Lease...

It is all going to repairs and upgrades for the moment. I really need May to be rainy but we all know that is NOT likely. And there is a chance April will be clear...and then...its on.

[Nirosi]

True, if the dates problem could be addressed it would help. It is very for the Soviets to face the Axis when they invade in, more or less, April 1941 and then (even worse I would say) resume their Summer offensive in April 1942 again (instead of both Junes for example).

[stjeand]

Early April 1942

UK - BOA 8 MM and 2 escorts sunk for 2 hits on Uboats...not a good turn.

Germany - Strategic bombing is going well...Dusseldorf continues to be hammered and Essen is now burning.

Africa - UK and Canadian forces crush the Tobruk defenders and take the city. All that remains now is Benghazi and Allied forces close in from both sides.

Italy - There are at least a dozen German units here as well as 8 air units...it is not likely that they will fall any time soon...

Russia

Arctic - Blizzard Quiet.

North - Heavy Rain stops the Russian attacks and German units begin to recover.

Center - Heavy Rain.

South - Rain.

All is quiet as the Russian continue to upgrade and reinforce units. Their army is over 2900 and the German army is around 2000...so it looks good at the moment. But time will tell.

[ncc1701e]

MP is a problem for the Soviet, but in my experience, not as big as one might think. It is surprising how even at35-40% MP, the Soviet can still have "ok" units on the field. One sees the difference, but it is not an extreme difference because MP loss come with combat which means that the surviving units usually to gain XPs to partly compensate.

Of course having full XP recruits and the combat experience at the same time would be better but the Soviets can still put up a good fight even at low XP. MP is not a small problem, but I would not say it is a huge one. PPs are much more of a problem I would say...

And of course, German MP is also a problem : it is too high, especially with the events. I would lower the German one before raising the Soviet one.

if manpower was not so important, indeed, why the Axis are receiving tons of them by events?

[Nirosi]

Well, I never said it is not important, on the contrary, it is vital.

My main point was that the solutions is not necessarily to improve the Soviet one, as we can instead (and/or) decrease the German one. I believe it is not as much the absolute values that are important, but the relative values between Axis and Allies. So decreasing the Germans could be as good as increasing Soviets.

My other more secondary comment, is about the 50% threshold. It is discussed often as if it is the "floor", but it is not. I have seen the Soviets going from 60% to 35% in a period of 18 or so months, and still advancing and moving toward Berlin. The 50% seems to be a psychological wall players try to avoid. Yet, it is kind of historical I would say to eventually have bad recruits and break under the 50% as soon as mid or late-43 in most games.

Of course, I agree that been at 40% in 1942 is not the same thing as been at 40% in 1944. But then again, even that would not matter if the German would also be at the same level more or less.

PS: I think you proposed to remove the MP events for the German MP? That would be a nice first try if possible...

[stjeand]

I think the German events in 41, 42, and 43 and fairly useless.
I don't think I have ever had an issue with German MP until Russia begins to push back in late 43 / 44, along with heavy Allied attacks.

If I remember the main issue was to allow Germany to survive....from what I have seen the decline is insanely fast, far to fast in fact...

But that is just person testing...I can't speak for all others.

I can just say once Germany starts to lose they don't seem to be able to hold out like they actually did in WW 2...they get beaten back very quickly. More manpower helps them last a little longer...

Honestly Russia could use some manpower early...

The issue I have is that the "armies" they receive take manpower and for me should not. That would be the difference overall. Remove that forming units cost manpower and the issue would be solved.

[ncc1701e]

Well, I never said it is not important, on the contrary, it is vital.

My main point was that the solutions is not necessarily to improve the Soviet one, as we can instead (and/or) decrease the German one. I believe it is not as much the absolute values that are important, but the relative values between Axis and Allies. So decreasing the Germans could be as good as increasing Soviets.

My other more secondary comment, is about the 50% threshold. It is discussed often as if it is the "floor", but it is not. I have seen the Soviets going from 60% to 35% in a period of 18 or so months, and still advancing and moving toward Berlin. The 50% seems to be a psychological wall players try to avoid. Yet, it is kind of historical I would say to eventually have bad recruits and break under the 50% as soon as mid or late-43 in most games.

Of course, I agree that been at 40% in 1942 is not the same thing as been at 40% in 1944. But then again, even that would not matter if the German would also be at the same level more or less.

PS: I think you proposed to remove the MP events for the German MP? That would be a nice first try if possible...

Soviet have already bad units at start with experience at 20% or 40%. They are losing tons of men to bring those units from 20% to 50% experience (because I don't disband them). And when this is done, they are low in manpower and again losing experience.

This is a double penalty for the Soviets.

[ncc1701e]

The issue I have is that the "armies" they receive take manpower and for me should not. That would be the difference overall. Remove that forming units cost manpower and the issue would be solved.

Really? I have never check this. This is interesting.

[Nirosi]

The issue I have is that the "armies" they receive take manpower and for me should not. That would be the difference overall. Remove that forming units cost manpower and the issue would be solved.

Really? I have never check this. This is interesting.

Hum... Neither did I. And if that is true, it should be removed (and this would help a lot about with the MP).

But to be honest it is hard to believe, as MP is consumed when a unit is build, not when deployed.

[stjeand]

Hum... Neither did I. And if that is true, it should be removed (and this would help a lot about with the MP).

But to be honest it is hard to believe, as MP is consumed when a unit is build, not when deployed.

Correct.

I tested this multiple times...
I only figured it out when I stopped building units and repairing and noticed...the USSR MP was dropping far to quickly.
VERY noticable when you get 4 armies in a turn...as you lose 140 MP...

The issue is Forming units are not built until they are formed, at least that is my guess.

For me that is what...20 armies? 36 x 20 is 720 MP...that is a LOT...

The only others with this is UK and France so the change would be minor overall...just take some MP from France and the UK to start IF you think this is an issue.

[ncc1701e]

I have done a quick test with Europe 1941 scenario. I do not see any consumption of manpower for forming armies.

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