MM (Allied) vs Nirosi (Axis) Nirosi welcome

[ncc1701e]

When the war starts I just try to zoc down as much as possible to drain some movement points and hope my multitude of units will drain German effiency. Retreat every turn trying to stay out of range of the German infantry as much as possible. And as you said try to avoid encirclement as much as possible which is easier said than done.

…

If you want to play for practice just let me know. And sorry still not done my Wite 2 turn. I will do it this weekend for sure.

/MM

Ok so you are also withdrawing every turn. But what do you mean by staying out of range of the infantry, always have one hex free between you and them to maximize ZOC?

For WITE, take your time and we can play Warplan, this is easier. I will PM you later.

[MagicMissile]

Yes at least one hex preferable more so they can at most make one attack and preferable 0 so the German mech units will have to do most of the attacking. Obviously this only works for the first few turns later one has to stop and defend somewhere and then the German infantry catch up. Again this is how I think in theory havent got much practical evidence it actually works .

[ncc1701e]

Yes in theory. Looks like I always fail the exam.

[stjeand]

I agree with MM regarding the Supply...but that means just keeping units on the rail heads. Keep in mind that each rail line they have to fight over is a delay in supply movement. Also IF there is a hex between you and the Germans they require at least 3 movement to get there...which in turn is 3 efficiency...
I like to hold the rail in the south...does not matter as much in the Baltic since that rail repairs in one turn.

Hold at riverlines...and leave sacrificial units with ZOCs to slow the Germans.

I have never done well as the Russians against really good players...But I have not played them in quite a while...

[canuckgamer]

I believe you three are veteran players of this game and good players. We are in to our second full PBEM game and I am the Allies again. I managed to start the summer of 42 with more Russian units and it is now June 5 42. In the last Axis turn a chunk of the Russian front was evaporated even though I pretty well had a double line from Rostov going north for about 8 hexes. Reading your comments below I quess I should have fallen back behind the river by Rostov. He did drop 2 paratrooper as well.
Leningrad fell in the spring but I am holding the Finns off.
Stjeand I noticed your comment that you have never done well as the Russians against really good players and I am beginning to think that way too. We shall see what happens in the next couple of turns but I think more has to be done to help the Russians survive.
You don't have enough units in 42 with Russians to defend in strength everywhere and given the German armour movement factor of 10 they can strike where ever there is a weak point.
I have started a battle of attrition a few hexes west of Alexandria to try and take some pressure off the Russians.
Last game the Axis took all three major cities and the Caucasus oilfields. If that happens in this game I will wait until there are some more balancing changes for the Russians to play WP or until WP2 comes out.
My opinion is that WPP is a more balanced game than WP.

[Nirosi]

Just had a look at the AAR and I wish to thank MagicMissile for doing it, very nice work and always entertaining. I have seen him play now, and I fear I will do poorly against the Soviets in this game and poorly as the Soviets in the other game. He is a better player, but I am persistant and, sometimes, learn from my mistakes.

The hard part is the dubious things (gamewise) I will still do because I like it or for the pleasure of role-play, I'll just have to find a way to compensate.

[Nirosi]

I am under the impression that I am retreating too easily but at the same time I fear encirclements.

So true, same here. It is almost an art as much as logic. And it is so contextual both terrain wise and about the style (and how daring they are) of your opponents!

[ncc1701e]

I believe you three are veteran players of this game and good players. We are in to our second full PBEM game and I am the Allies again. I managed to start the summer of 42 with more Russian units and it is now June 5 42. In the last Axis turn a chunk of the Russian front was evaporated even though I pretty well had a double line from Rostov going north for about 8 hexes. Reading your comments below I quess I should have fallen back behind the river by Rostov. He did drop 2 paratrooper as well.
Leningrad fell in the spring but I am holding the Finns off.
Stjeand I noticed your comment that you have never done well as the Russians against really good players and I am beginning to think that way too. We shall see what happens in the next couple of turns but I think more has to be done to help the Russians survive.
You don't have enough units in 42 with Russians to defend in strength everywhere and given the German armour movement factor of 10 they can strike where ever there is a weak point.
I have started a battle of attrition a few hexes west of Alexandria to try and take some pressure off the Russians.
Last game the Axis took all three major cities and the Caucasus oilfields. If that happens in this game I will wait until there are some more balancing changes for the Russians to play WP or until WP2 comes out.
My opinion is that WPP is a more balanced game than WP.

This is also my experience. Germans are too strong in 1942 because they are not losing enough manpower in 1941. And they have too much manpower too.

OR

Soviet are not strong enough in 1942 because they can’t repair and produce at the same time. They lack PP even with lend lease at max. And Soviet needs more units.

Sorry to discuss this inside your AAR, we may go elsewhere on the main forum.

[MagicMissile]

I believe you three are veteran players of this game and good players. We are in to our second full PBEM game and I am the Allies again. I managed to start the summer of 42 with more Russian units and it is now June 5 42. In the last Axis turn a chunk of the Russian front was evaporated even though I pretty well had a double line from Rostov going north for about 8 hexes. Reading your comments below I quess I should have fallen back behind the river by Rostov. He did drop 2 paratrooper as well.
Leningrad fell in the spring but I am holding the Finns off.
Stjeand I noticed your comment that you have never done well as the Russians against really good players and I am beginning to think that way too. We shall see what happens in the next couple of turns but I think more has to be done to help the Russians survive.
You don't have enough units in 42 with Russians to defend in strength everywhere and given the German armour movement factor of 10 they can strike where ever there is a weak point.
I have started a battle of attrition a few hexes west of Alexandria to try and take some pressure off the Russians.
Last game the Axis took all three major cities and the Caucasus oilfields. If that happens in this game I will wait until there are some more balancing changes for the Russians to play WP or until WP2 comes out.
My opinion is that WPP is a more balanced game than WP.

Do you remeber how big your army size was in June 42? I believe it has to be at least 2500 to have a chance to survive. I also believe you can not stand and fight you need to continue to retreat in 42 even giving up Moscow if you still have it. But then what trying to come back to Berlin from Kazan vs German units that are way stronger than yours defending behind rivers and with the manpower loss of Moscow it is not easy probably impossible. I also think that the historical timeline of the western allies Africa 42 Italy 43 and France 44 does not work. It is not easy depending on how bad the BoA has been but I think one need to threaten either France or Italy in 42 already. Maybe you will get kicked out but it will draw some units away from Russia at least.

[MagicMissile]

He is a better player, but I am persistant and, sometimes, learn from my mistakes.

The hard part is the dubious things (gamewise) I will still do because I like it or for the pleasure of role-play, I'll just have to find a way to compensate.

I seem to make a little bit less mistakes that maybe over time snowballs into an advantage but lots seem to me to be luck as well as the BoA outcome with my subs doing better but I dont think I am doing anything better there it just happens.

But there seem to be some skill at play as I usually win with the Germans and survive with the Russians. And when I played a better player for example HarryB I lost with both the Germans and the Allied. But with that said as I have said a lot lately I think the Germans are a bit OP at the moment. Not sure what changed that. Possibly the extra 120 manpower every year which is a pretty new event I think. Or the lowering of the Soviet at start xp I think it was 35 before?

I play tabletop roleplaying games but not so much in Wargames .

[MagicMissile]

This is also my experience. Germans are too strong in 1942 because they are not losing enough manpower in 1941. And they have too much manpower too.

OR

Soviet are not strong enough in 1942 because they can’t repair and produce at the same time. They lack PP even with lend lease at max. And Soviet needs more units.

Sorry to discuss this inside your AAR, we may go elsewhere on the main forum.
[/quote]

No I prefer a lively discussion AAR that was the idea. See how the game plays out and possibly we can come up with ideas for changes.

I am not an expert on WW2 but I know more than probably 99,5% maybe even 99,9% of the world population and as I understand it the German army already in 1942 was not of the same quality as the one of 1941. They might still have the manpower (even if they barely had that as shown by the huge increase in axis allied forces and the fact that the offensive of 1942 was not all over the front but just the southern part of it) but especially the loss of a lot of experienced NCOs caused a decline in troop quality.

I love WP I have not spent remotely as much time on any other computer wargame. I like the boardgame feel to it. I like that it plays pretty fast. I like that it is not that micro intensive. I like the fact that the game in an easy way incorporated the important aspects of the war production, manpower and oil.

I really like the idea of the German units starting better and the allied starting worse but over time they should meet and kind of equalise in quality. But that is the part that is not working now I feel. The gap in quality is not closed fast enough and therein I think lies the biggest problem. If anyone agrees try to come up with ideas to try and fix it. How hard can it be .

[ncc1701e]

This is also my experience. Germans are too strong in 1942 because they are not losing enough manpower in 1941. And they have too much manpower too.

OR

Soviet are not strong enough in 1942 because they can’t repair and produce at the same time. They lack PP even with lend lease at max. And Soviet needs more units.

Sorry to discuss this inside your AAR, we may go elsewhere on the main forum.

No I prefer a lively discussion AAR that was the idea. See how the game plays out and possibly we can come up with ideas for changes.

I am not an expert on WW2 but I know more than probably 99,5% maybe even 99,9% of the world population and as I understand it the German army already in 1942 was not of the same quality as the one of 1941. They might still have the manpower (even if they barely had that as shown by the huge increase in axis allied forces and the fact that the offensive of 1942 was not all over the front but just the southern part of it) but especially the loss of a lot of experienced NCOs caused a decline in troop quality.

I love WP I have not spent remotely as much time on any other computer wargame. I like the boardgame feel to it. I like that it plays pretty fast. I like that it is not that micro intensive. I like the fact that the game in an easy way incorporated the important aspects of the war production, manpower and oil.

I really like the idea of the German units starting better and the allied starting worse but over time they should meet and kind of equalise in quality. But that is the part that is not working now I feel. The gap in quality is not closed fast enough and therein I think lies the biggest problem. If anyone agrees try to come up with ideas to try and fix it. How hard can it be .

You are bringing a very good point. Historically, Germans had 10 Panzer divisions. What they did was to split their TO&E to create 20 Panzer divisions. They didn't produced more tanks in the early years of WW2, just replacing the destroyed ones. In the game, the production is made so that this is really 20 Panzer divisions created but of the same model than the one of 1939/1940.

Also, as you said, the German army of 1942 was not capable to attack everywhere in USSR. They had to rectify their front lines to pull up some troops and some trucks for Case Blue. And your sentence, "the German army already in 1942 was not of the same quality as the one of 1941" is so true.

Which makes me think that the core of the German army on the map is at 70% experience. What if the based land experience is reduced to 65%. Taking casualties, German army will degrade progressively. Just an idea, we will out this AAR goes.

[MagicMissile]

Which makes me think that the core of the German army on the map is at 70% experience. What if the based land experience is reduced to 65%. Taking casualties, German army will degrade progressively. Just an idea, we will out this AAR goes.

Yes that might be worth trying. I do think all else being equal that German units were a little bit better than an allied unit but I dont think they were 40% or more better . As usual it will snowball a bit France more difficult and therefore possibly Barbarossa too hard. Could one make an event that lowers German XP roof every year. Like 70 in 40 maybe 67 in 41 and 65 42 onwards or something like that?

Can that number be modded by someone who knows how to do these things? Could be worth trying out.

[ncc1701e]

Yes that might be worth trying. I do think all else being equal that German units were a little bit better than an allied unit but I dont think they were 40% or more better . As usual it will snowball a bit France more difficult and therefore possibly Barbarossa too hard. Could one make an event that lowers German XP roof every year. Like 70 in 40 maybe 67 in 41 and 65 42 onwards or something like that?

Can that number be modded by someone who knows how to do these things? Could be worth trying out.

I prefer that the stock scenario is solved since 99,9% of the players are using it. But, instead of reducing the Germans, increasing the Soviets is perhaps better. My personal view is that, on the Western front, balance is there. The problem is on the Eastern front. Acting on Axis will unbalance the Western front. So, for me, the solution is only on the Soviet side.

[MagicMissile]

Yes that might be worth trying. I do think all else being equal that German units were a little bit better than an allied unit but I dont think they were 40% or more better . As usual it will snowball a bit France more difficult and therefore possibly Barbarossa too hard. Could one make an event that lowers German XP roof every year. Like 70 in 40 maybe 67 in 41 and 65 42 onwards or something like that?

Can that number be modded by someone who knows how to do these things? Could be worth trying out.

I prefer that the stock scenario is solved since 99,9% of the players are using it. But, instead of reducing the Germans, increasing the Soviets is perhaps better. My personal view is that, on the Western front, balance is there. The problem is on the Eastern front. Acting on Axis will unbalance the Western front. So, for me, the solution is only on the Soviet side.

Yes you have a point there. I think I would do the following and see how that works out.
1) Increase the soviet start xp as it was 5% higher.
2) Give back the Soviet mech units 7 move in the Spring of 42. The Germans can take too big risks I think knowing there are only 5 MP units on the map.
3) Somehow lower German manpower somewhat .

[canuckgamer]

Hope you guys don't mind me adding some comments. From what I've read about the eastern front, the Axis forces in Russia may have had similar numbers compared to 1941 but a larger portion was made up from satellite countries like Romania, Hungary and Italy.
In Operation Saturn the Russians concentrated their attack on the parts of the line manned by the satellite countries who didn't put up much of a fight which resulted in the 8th Army being encircled.
I have stated before that I think the experience levels of the Romanians, Hungarians and Italians are too high and should be reduced say to the same level as the Russians. The soldiers of those countries did not want to be in Russia.
By the way your comments about 1942 are exactly what I have experienced with the Russians. It doesn't seem to matter what happens in 1941, the Germans especially their panzers demolish the Russian line in 42. In addition I am faced with the continuous question of building vs. upgrading.

[canuckgamer]

Past midnight here and half asleep. I meant Operation Uranus and he encirclement of the 6th Army. Just to add a little more.

Last game I disbanded the entire Russian airforce to gain PP's and believe other people have done the same. This to me is pretty gamey and is another indication that there still an issue with the eastern front. What about a larger loss in effectiveness for the Axis when they attack in the winter of 41/42 and then less in the winter of 42/43 so that by the last winter they are back to where they are now in the game. Hitler and the German army thought it would be over before winter and they were wholly unprepared for the Russian winter and for that matter the mud as well.

I know that two of the changes Alvaro has made to help out the Russians is slowing down the conversion of rail lines and the automatic winterization of the Siberian reinforcements. Were there other changes?

[Flaviusx]

The eastern front was balanced at Russian experience of 35% and with their mech improving from early 1942 rather than late 1942. It was absolutely fine.

Once Alvaro changed this, many moons ago, he broke the game and it never recovered from this. He's done a bunch of minor tweeks in the meantime, but the loss of combat power here is a deal killer. Typically the Soviets enter 1942 at 40% experience and with units not doing any better than infantry speed all the way until fall of 1942. That's enough for most Germans to chase the Red Army all the way to the Volga and cripple it for the rest of the game. They have no real mobility or counterpunch until 1943 and by then it is far too late.

He ought to revert it to the original design. I pleaded with him to do this for many months and he flatly refused to do so. So I moved on to other games.

[MagicMissile]

The eastern front was balanced at Russian experience of 35% and with their mech improving from early 1942 rather than late 1942. It was absolutely fine.

Once Alvaro changed this, many moons ago, he broke the game and it never recovered from this. He's done a bunch of minor tweeks in the meantime, but the loss of combat power here is a deal killer. Typically the Soviets enter 1942 at 40% experience and with units not doing any better than infantry speed all the way until fall of 1942. That's enough for most Germans to chase the Red Army all the way to the Volga and cripple it for the rest of the game. They have no real mobility or counterpunch until 1943 and by then it is far too late.

He ought to revert it to the original design. I pleaded with him to do this for many months and he flatly refused to do so. So I moved on to other games.

Hello,
Nice to see you come back and comment a bit . I agree I think 1941 plays out pretty nicely now. Sometimes Leningrad falls sometimes not. Moscow I think usually holds and the German reach historical lines kind of. But 1942 onwards does feel like it is a bit broken.

Can I ask what game you play? Always on the outlook for new game. I might have missed something good .

[MagicMissile]

So here is an example of my setup of the Soviet defense.
Starting in the North. My defense against the Finns is putting corps where supply is very low and few units can attack. I has served me fairly well but a detemined Finnish offensive can break it so sometimes a copule of more units have to be sent North to reinforce this front.

In the defense of Leningrad I am very happy with one improvent I started with not long ago. What I do is I put a 1941 corps in Leningrad and move the army in Leningrad to the Swamp hex south east of Leningrad. I then Garrison that army, max upgrade of course and give it a antitank improvement. It will turn into a 10 strength army in swamp with a coastal defense (they were not ready yet but will be in time before the Germans arrive) with a good leader like Rokossovsky it can be very difficult to move and will require substantial German resources to do that. The idea is if Leningrad is cut off that army wont make any difference anyway and will do more good defending the city outside.

Leningrad.png (1.98 MiB) Viewed 530 times