What to do when you can not win the BOA as Allies

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: baloo7777

If this game were a simulation or closer (than the fantasy it really is), do you really believe the Allies would have a French Air Force that is equal to the Germans (with 2 extra german air units-5 air Superiority to 3). Of course not... many Axis players won't even use their air as the 6-4 Allied Air units are ridiculous in the damage they cause the Luftwaffe. Do you think the Allies could have fielded 5 Corps of Armor that could have blunted any German Armor spearhead??? In 1944, sure... in 1940??? Complete fantasy. Makes for a solid, playable game... but it has no real relationship to WW2 except that its in Europe and its 1939-45. Otherwise, the Allies would have almost unlimited PP's after the USA adds its economic might, and no play balance.

I will again advocate that the French Air Force should be at 40% experience. [:D]
Right now, I am not using my German Air Force to invade France in 1940 given the losses they take.

[baloo7777]

I have only played a couple pbem games as the Allies. In truth, in all wargames I avoid playing the defensive player as I suck at defense. I expected 1 or 2 Armor in France as I see that often. In one of my only games as Allied player, I did to the Axis what you did to me, using French Armor, the WDF and the 30th Armor. The Germans had a surprise shattered armor... but he still came back and is hitting Russia hard. In that game though the Germans took over 400 land steps lost, they still have the 1050 step land forces I usually carry into the start of Barbarossa. Also in the mirror game with him my Axis have had 2 UBoats sunk and have about 75 steps lost for 95 mm and 3 escorts... yet at the end of '41 I've taken Leningrad and Moscow (although I may not hold Moscow long)... so I really feel the time spent on the BOA is less important and unlike the real BOA which almost brought the British to its knees before 1942.

[baloo7777]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

I will again advocate that the French Air Force should be at 40% experience. [:D]
Right now, I am not using my German Air Force to invade France in 1940 given the losses they take.

That is a very good and easily done mod to the French Air Force. I also think that the 50 experience French units occupying the Maginot line should be 40 experience if REMOVED from the Maginot line as they really are only getting an extra bonus for feeling good that there WWI line was undefeatable.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: baloo7777

That is a very good and easily done mod to the French Air Force. I also think that the 50 experience French units occupying the Maginot line should be 40 experience if REMOVED from the Maginot line as they really are only getting an extra bonus for feeling good that there WWI line was undefeatable.

Already discussed here:
fb.asp?m=4938104

Alvaro's answer:
fb.asp?m=4938109

[stjeand]

In my last three games as the Allies...

1st) HAD NO IDEA what I was doing...and am getting HAMMERED. Clear turns in 41 since March...so the Germans are deep but overextended. Hoping they slow.
2n2) Learned from 1...shattered 3 German Armor and 1 Mech. Game ended as he had no units to take France.
3rd) Learned from 1...shattered 3 German Armor and 2 Mech. Game ended as well.
4th) This one...but this one the BOA is so far one sided it is tough to match it up.


In this one...I have tried but your armor is retreating or staying fit. So just a slowing action at the moment and hopefully a shatter of a couple more units before France is yours.

The battle continues

[baloo7777]

Only a turn or two until the western European monsoon season starts and France no longer matters unless I care to try a 1942 Barbarossa... so delay is as good as destroy because the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe will not be recovered and built enough armor/mech to start in Russia in 1941. In a PBEM game going now my Wehrmacht did not get through France until first November '40 turn (my first one with 1.091, and introduced to what 8 British full strength units with the 2 Armor and French Armor can do to a surprised German). Barbarossa started at the end of June'41 and I did not take Leningrad or Moscow and just got through Kiev by pushing the Army into heavy losses. It is the beginning of spring '42 but most likely not much to do as N.Africa is Allied and Italy and South France are threatened.
I saw the way you started attacking in the Benelux in October '39 and kept attacking through rain and snow in our mirror game and took France by June '40. I had expected your losses to be much higher than they were with all the 2-1 attacks. Looks like a good strategy as the French never could save for their Armor and British had to put the small corps over as the large corps to full strength would have left the Air units light. But I see some players only using French Air and some putting every air unit into it and causing as much damage to German Air as possible.

[Harrybanana]

Playing the Axis I have personally never had much of a problem as the Germans dealing with the French air force. To some extent I am sure I have been lucky, or at least never unlucky. But also the German fighters have both a technological (41 vs 40) and experience (average of 60% to 50%) edge over the French. So the air to air strength of the German fighters is a 6 or 7 while the French is a 4 or 5. So if as the Germans you are losing more aircraft than the French than either you are unlucky (which is possible), or you are making the mistake of leaving your fighters on auto rather than mission only.

[baloo7777]

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

Playing the Axis I have personally never had much of a problem as the Germans dealing with the French air force. To some extent I am sure I have been lucky, or at least never unlucky. But also the German fighters have both a technological (41 vs 40) and experience (average of 60% to 50%) edge over the French. So the air to air strength of the German fighters is a 6 or 7 while the French is a 4 or 5. So if as the Germans you are losing more aircraft than the French than either you are unlucky (which is possible), or you are making the mistake of leaving your fighters on auto rather than mission only.

No, not leaving on auto... leave 1 or 2 fighters with 1 OP to help protect an exposed (as in 3 sides attackable) armor/mech... but not always. Beginning with having to take Belgium but (leaving Netherlands alone), the bombers begin taking 1, 2, or 3 step casualties just in bombing (usually 40 tech but I've gotten into France in June with 39 bombers more than once... and yes I max out all the main ones like close support etc)... then if the British and French are set to intercept, you will still take heavy step losses on a fighter or two... or even the French and Belgian Air can damage a fighter or two and the bombers a step or 3... I repair every turn and use supply trucks but still have to deal with 65-75% bombers at the end of each turn and some fighters down to 15 steps and 77-80% efficiency... more repairs more trucks but once armor is down steps and efficiency, competition for replacements can leave a couple air units out of the next turn on more than the rare occasion... I have seen several Allied opponents that keep their French and British fighters forward intercepting every turn, but also one that never intercepts but always uses his air with the full strength Brits units to wear down and counterattack and do heavy damage to at least one tip of the spear unit (Inf now that I've learned that armor can only attack and pull back... like pulling a punch... You may not have to grind through France, but I do... and the rare breakthrough can be cut off and shattered too easily to take chances (at least until you've stretched the line enough to send the Brits to withdrawing some units).

[ncc1701e]

German have only 4 fighters group:
. 2 fighter groups at 70% experience
. 2 fighter groups at 60% experience

If they buy one new fighter group, it will arrive with 50% experience only.

Against Western countries, the Germans will have to fight against:
. 3 UK fighter groups at 50% experience
. 3 French fighter groups at 50% experience
. 1 Netherlands fighter group at 40% experience
. 1 Belgium fighter group at 40% experience

My proposal is to:
. Put the four German fighter groups on map at 70% experience at start
. Put the three French fighter groups on map at 40% experience at start
. Since the French fighter groups have few steps missing, we can leave the based experience of French at 50%. Like that they will be around 42%-44% experience for 1940.

[baloo7777]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

My proposal is to:
. Put the four German fighter groups on map at 70% experience at start
. Put the three French fighter groups on map at 40% experience at start
. Since the French fighter groups have few steps missing, we can leave the based experience of French at 50%. Like that they will be around 42%-44% experience for 1940.

+1

[stjeand]

Update in the BOA...

Mid Aug 40..

UK MS sunk 91 Escorts sunk 10
French MS sunk 9 Escorts sunk 2

[baloo7777]

ORIGINAL: stjeand

Update in the BOA...

Mid Aug 40..

UK MS sunk 91 Escorts sunk 10
French MS sunk 9 Escorts sunk 2

Man, this is what you bought with the PP's spent on the British units sent to France and not the BOA-
3 British Armor/1 Brit Mech/4 Large full-strength Inf Corps and the French Armor vs 5 Axis Panzer and a Mech (worn down from Belgium and the first few turns in France)...

Situ at start of German turn Aug 16,1940:

[baloo7777]

Situ at end of Axis Aug 16, 1940 turn:

[baloo7777]

Trashed German Armor as of Aug 16, 1940:

[baloo7777]

The Wehrmacht is very damaged with 2 clear Sept turns before rain seals fate. At present outnumber Allies 5-4 in usable Armor/Mech. Have Lille/Metz (35 pts) and need Paris (well-protected) or Vichy/Lyon as Rouen is too well protected.

This is what 9 British units and 5 total full-strength Armor/Mech plus attrited Luftwaffe can do... BOA means little... from here defeat of France still leaves Germans with a long repair/refit and then little time to prepare for Barbarossa... what about Yugo/Greece/Netherlands. It's a well-played defense, so again, the BOA has little effect on what British can do.

Casualty Table at end of Aug 40 in our game (showing BOA also):





BTW...that's a full-strength British Armor Corps just Northwest of Paris... fun...

[baloo7777]

Total Forces Table end of Aug 1940:

[stjeand]

Again...the UK can do nothing in the BOA until July of 40...just build one Escort or one MS...which I did...
But after you sank all my escorts in 1939...I completely changed my strategy to see if I could heavily delay the Germans in France.

It would appear that I did so...
Normally I never build so many armor...but thought...gee what can that do. If Panzers are damaged and caught...they can do a lot.

At the point the game stopped the UK armor / mech and French were pretty much worn out. But the did their job...taking out 2 Inf and 2 armor.
Not sure what state your others were in but I don't think they could have made any more major counter attacks.

But your airforce was pretty beat...just like mine in the mirror game.




Well since this thread was on...what to do with the BOA when you can't win...

As an Ally...maybe you heavily defend France.
It has worked for me in all but one game...as in that game it was one of my first and I was attacked straight through the winter and made every allied mistake possible. That game is lost but I learned was to do as the allies since I have never played them for the most part.
As the Germans...I guess you just focus on armor and hope. You can now take the Netherlands and Norway since the extra MS and Escorts do not matter. Save you subs for direct ship attacks and rare convoy hits.

[Harrybanana]

stjeand, I don't know why you say the BOA is lost. You are perhaps losing the BOA but that does not mean it is lost in the sense that you can't recover from it. In the first 25 or so turns of the game (Sept 1/39 to Aug 16/40) you have lost 88 UK MS. Even adding in the French MS sunk, you are still not even averaging 4 MS sunk per turn. You still have 180 UK MS and only need 130 or so to move all of your resources. I assume you will soon be getting the 10 MS that the UK can build before July 40, giving you a total of 60 surplus MS. So if you lose an average of 6 per turn going forward, you still have enough MS to last you 10 turns, or 5 months. By then it will be January 41. By then you will be receiving the 10 MS per turn that you started building in June 1940. Admittedly my numbers might be off and you will be down to 100 or so MS by January 41. So I suggest that on some turns you build 20 MS to make up the losses. The point being that you will be able to make good your losses in time. Meanwhile Canada builds 13 escorts per year and the UK throws in some as well. Of course, the US should also be building escorts and MS.

But if you have in fact destroyed 2 armour (not mechanized) and 2 infantry in France than the War is already over anyway.

[stjeand]

Sadly I will not get a chance to find out...

Last turn played losses were...

Mid Sept...

UK MS sunk 91 UK Escorts sunk 10
French MS sunk 9 French Escorts sunk 2

I was starting to get escorts from Canada...I think 4 or so...
And when Norway was attacked that actually gave me enough to keep from being on the edge of negative.

But yes...with the loses of 2 Inf and 2 Armor the game ended.


In a few games now as the Axis...can't even touch the amount of MS that were sunk against me.
But...we shall see if that changes as time goes on.

Thank you again for your insight...