AI vs. Real Player

[Snydly]

After participating and viewing the Simple Survey thread, I have noticed quite a few players saying they will never play another Human in this game.

My experience with the Board game is extensive from about 1985 to 1995. This game I always played against People and that is when things are truly the most dynamic and full filling. I feel that those who will not challenge another person with this game will truly lose out on two things: the frustration of adapting to poor dice rolls, and having to adapt your defense and offense to an opponents move(Invasion, Offensive Chip, etc.). Planning the best offensive and seeing it fail is truly a humbling event. Just be aware that we have all experienced this ... and we all will continue to experience this. Remember its just a game, but playing another person will bring much more wild results than anything a computer opponent can ever pull off on another person.

My main concern with the game is when those players choose to not play another person and then experience a poor AI system or lack lustre one, they will only ever know the game as a historical replay. They will never experience the true nuttiness that Hitler/Mussolini and Hirohito inflicted on this world. The unknown is to be savored and adapted to.

Good Luck in your game play. [:D]

[sapper_astro]

ORIGINAL: Snydly

After participating and viewing the Simple Survey thread, I have noticed quite a few players saying they will never play another Human in this game.

My experience with the Board game is extensive from about 1985 to 1995. This game I always played against People and that is when things are truly the most dynamic and full filling. I feel that those who will not challenge another person with this game will truly lose out on two things: the frustration of adapting to poor dice rolls, and having to adapt your defense and offense to an opponents move(Invasion, Offensive Chip, etc.). Planning the best offensive and seeing it fail is truly a humbling event. Just be aware that we have all experienced this ... and we all will continue to experience this. Remember its just a game, but playing another person will bring much more wild results than anything a computer opponent can ever pull off on another person.

My main concern with the game is when those players choose to not play another person and then experience a poor AI system or lack lustre one, they will only ever know the game as a historical replay. They will never experience the true nuttiness that Hitler/Mussolini and Hirohito inflicted on this world. The unknown is to be savored and adapted to.

Good Luck in your game play. [:D]

Snydly, I remember when the balloon originally went up on this game back on the ADG website. I said I would want a half decent AI as I will not have the time to setup games with people very often. I, too, have played the game for many years.

It almost seems like the anti AI crew are becoming worried. I am unsure as to the reason why. The PBEM, net play, etc option is already a for sure part of the game. Adding an AI is an excellent move, the better the AI, the more it will be an advantage. As you say, if the AI is rubbish, it will turn players off. Don't give it a horrid AI then!

Another advantage to a decent AI; Players that begin with it may well turn to playing against other humans. If you do not have an AI, then none of these players will ever play another human. It will be a small circle of WiF players that eventually get snuffed out, instead of an increasing number that started off with the AI and moved up from there. You and I both know it is a somewhat complex strategy game, especially with all the addons over the years.

I put forward that the AI is imperative for WiF. If the AI is successful, then it will only do good things for the franchise. Make sure it is successful. If they only want to play the AI, I do not see how this effects the people who wish to play it another way. If they miss out on something, or perhaps are not interested (lets face it, some of the rules wars with anally retentive morons was never fun, and often dragged on for hours), why is this a concern? The fact that a number of them certainly will try the other ways is what is important surely?

[csharpmao]

Hello,

In the Simple Survey thread, I said I would play most of the time versus the AI.
It is not because I prefer to play against a machine, it is a question of time.
When playing with someone else, you must agree to play on a regular basis.
PBEM is a little better, but I think some opponent will not appreciate if I don't play during two weeks.
AI will never complain, even if I don't play during two month, and then play each day during a week.

Of course, I think it more challenging to play versus real people, but I think I'll play only a small part of the game by email, and probably never with NetPlay.

[Harold Haralson]

No or poor AI = no sale for me. I have a copy of the original
ADG program.

I have concerns about some of the modifications that
have been made. I am probably going to wait and see
what the reviews are by other players before I purchase.

[bo]

Very good thread gentlemen, I have never played WIF and I am looking forward to the games release. The only board games I used to play were 3rd Reich and Squad Leader which I enjoyed for a while when my son lived at home. I have played many computer war games [WW2 only} some with terrible AI's { AH's 3rd Reich is one of many] Strategic command series has a decent AI namely the newest game in the Pacific theater. But as in all AI's if you find a chink in the armor that the AI cannot handle most players who hate to lose will always exploit it. [thats me] Other players will avoid doing so at a cost of maybe losing the game. For example in Strategic command when the AI led allies invade France, the first wave of the invasion is usually well done but if the Germans drive the allies out of France then the AI falls to pieces sending one unit here and one unit there trying to invade which have no chance of landing or staying in France. This is to me a problem of the AI which has never been solved and may never be. I believe in my heart and soul that the AI will make or break this game, if the AI is decent then so be it, I will play against the computer. Playing solo [against the AI] will IMO open up this game to everyone who plays computer war games who dont have the time for pbem, for hot seat games because no one nearby plays these games, for e-mail etc.[time consuming] or they have always played an AI opponet. I believe some of the above posts are correct that playing against a human opponet whether he or she is good or just competent is a great way to play because you are up against a player who is capable of changing a game plan that didnt work before and also a player improves game by game. Again my final opinion [humble as it is] the AI will make or break this game!

Willy

[Mike Parker]

As Willy said I think the issue will be if this game is to have sales it needs to appeal to the gamer that will play all or a vast majority against the AI.  Some folks will buy it specifically as a platform to pbem and/or netplay.  But any broad appeal will have to come from the folks what will play against the computer.
 
I will sure give a shot to netplay, pbem I am unsure of, I will wait and see but WiF seems kinda cumbersom to play that way.  But I will mostly play against the AI, because as someone says, the AI is not going to wish for my ruination if I take two weeks off, and its not going to have a sick 4 yr old when I want to play on the thursday evening!
 

[bo]

I get tired of you Mike saying what I want to say better than I say it [:D] I think thats what it will come down to, selling this game to the general war gaming players not just to WIF experienced players, not only so Matrix will back this game for years to come because of the number of sales, but because this game is so dynamic that the general public [like me] who have never played a great war game before like this will enjoy this one for many years to come. And to those who like PBEM they will have an infinite more number of players who would be willing to play PBEM with them than there are now.

Willy

[Mike Parker]

I thought you said it well Willy, I just wanted to give my 2 cents too!

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

I thought you said it well Willy, I just wanted to give my 2 cents too!

Appreciate it Mike I need your 2 cents, hopefully Matrix hears it and creates a superb AI if possible, I think a decent AI would be quite nice also. If it gets around the gaming world that the finest war game ever conceived is also a computer game with very good graphics, a decent AI, and a interface second to none in the gaming world, and a caring helpful and intuitive programer such as Steve standing with us, this game will take the war gaming people by storm, I feel once this game takes off, we who prefer the AI in games can then concentrate on possibly learning the value of PBEM and playing against human opponents, I believe that newbies such as myself can learn to play a decent game against the AI, then we might be willing to take on other players, there is not a doubt in my mind that a good WIF board game player would rather take on another good WIF player on the computer then to play against someone who has no idea what the game is about or has very little understanding about tactics. I feel you can only improve your game in any forum by playing someone better than you are, and I think the AI could go a long way to help in that area.

Willy

[macgregor]

Well as long as some insist we continue throwing requests at Steve like a short-order cook. I'm throwing one in for no extra time spent delaying wif product one for the sake of the AI. I've only waited what? 10 years to play a game that doesn't require AI mainly to placate your your very vocal...self? Steve seems to take a particular interest in the AI. So whatever wif product one delivers, there will probably be improvements to the AI for wif product 2. Would you wait 10 years for a good AI? All I know is I've waited 10 years for what I want. Thank god it's finally getting close. I've already invested well over $500 in a game that I have no one to play with. Because you would rather play a computer than a human, while not a bad thing, should not delay my game any longer than it already has. Are wif players the base? Or are they just the collateral demographic?

[bo]

ORIGINAL: macgregor

Well as long as some insist we continue throwing requests at Steve like a short-order cook. I'm throwing one in for no extra time spent delaying wif product one for the sake of the AI. I've only waited what? 10 years to play a game that doesn't require AI mainly to placate your your very vocal...self? Steve seems to take a particular interest in the AI. So whatever wif product one delivers, there will probably be improvements to the AI for wif product 2. Would you wait 10 years for a good AI? All I know is I've waited 10 years for what I want. Thank god it's finally getting close. I've already invested well over $500 in a game that I have no one to play with. Because you would rather play a computer than a human, while not a bad thing, should not delay my game any longer than it already has. Are wif players the base? Or are they just the collateral demographic?

I am assuming Macgregor you are referring to me [very vocal] and as being I did not see a smiley I will answer you, did you actually read the post or just pull out something that annoys you like a few do and dont even try to understand the post or the feelings behind it, [for the sake of an AI] whew I hope the general population does not feel the way you do. Who said anything about waiting ten years thats bull, I will accept any AI that comes out with this game and hope in the future it will be improved if it needs improving, and I doubt that Matrix is counting on you and the hard core WIF gamers for their fortune making in this game, they need everyone Pbem and AI lovers together, WIF and newbies. I for one hope your game wont be delayed not even one day and I do hope you enjoy your game on the 27th of July. You do not usually get into a confrontation with anyone so I guess I hit a raw nerve and for that I appoligize, if anything I have noticed in the last few weeks it is that tension seems to be rising, both from the players who post here and also from Steve who sometimes gives short answers or answers that are tinged with hey I doing the best I can to bring this game to completion.

Willy

[macgregor]

It's not that I have any ill-will toward you Willy, and I do not fault you for your desire to have a challenging AI. There is I won't deny, some frustration at waiting for...I'm going to say 10 years(though in fairness, I believe only 6 under Matrix) at least amid this ever-expanding target demographic for wif product #1. I think pbem and a challenging AI are all wonderful ideas that should indeed be added to wif. My limited intellect tells me that Matrix is prioritizing the most work intensive, challenging.....new innovations to the game while leaving the basic necessities to the actual wif player; which is netplay to dead last, sometimes leaving me wondering if it'll even be ready for wif product #1. Though I suppose I can't blame you for asking.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: macgregor

It's not that I have any ill-will toward you Willy, and I do not fault you for your desire to have a challenging AI. There is I won't deny, some frustration at waiting for...I'm going to say 10 years(though in fairness, I believe only 6 under Matrix) at least amid this ever-expanding target demographic for wif product #1. I think pbem and a challenging AI are all wonderful ideas that should indeed be added to wif. My limited intellect tells me that Matrix is prioritizing the most work intensive, challenging.....new innovations to the game while leaving the basic necessities to the actual wif player; which is netplay to dead last, sometimes leaving me wondering if it'll even be ready for wif product #1. Though I suppose I can't blame you for asking.

My problem Macgregor is I have never played netplay or PBEM, never in any game, so I guess I rely too much on a good AI, I do hope that netplay is not last in the minds of Matrix, I feel the major problem that Steve has in doing this game is the accurate recreation of this terrific board game to the liking of everyone who will play this game is the knowledge of experience players how this game looks and plays. When a company such as Matrix makes up a game other than a board game they can make all the units historically correct and the maps very accurate, but they can make up any rule as they see fit whether it be movement of air, naval and land or combat tables. Steve does not have that luxury to do that he has to make it almost exactly as the board game [or exactly] rules, maps, and movement, and the slightest mistake will be noted by good WIF boardgamers. Sorry for being longwinded Mac because I know you know all these things. I need to talk about these things because as you know I have no idea what some of the boardgamers are talking about so I rarely comment on game mechanics, so I just generalize about things I want to know about.

Willy

[IKerensky_alt]

I second the need for a good AI.

There is a lot of way to play WiF on netplay, PBEM already. What will make and break MWiF will be the AIO (and the AIA for me, so you see I will be patient). Every minute spent one the AI do far more for the success of the game than every hour spent on graphics or checking if the program apply correctly the thousands of rules...

If the AI is bad then the game will be a failure because it will fail to sell to nearly half of the targeted audience. If the AI is good it will be a success because everyone will be happy and the reports will be very nice.

Conceiving a valid and challenging AIO at the strategical level is something that never have been done successfully before. Every other games of this scope I own and play rely heavily on AI cheat, scripts and standard behaviour. Buff the defense on the area the AI US will invade and you will never see it try on anywhere in Europe... Reinforce Singapour and you will sink all the Japanese Navy as they cruise by in small packet ignoring the fact they are repetedly crushed by hundreds of land based bombers...

But if they are successfull on what they have planned on the AI in this game, and I hope they are because I became a great fan of their project. Then this will be a premiere and this could produce a lot of buzz that will help the game sell well, even simply because people will want to try on this AI and see for themselves.

And for the Real Player part, I think a lot of people dont play PBEM/Net because they dont know specific people to play with and are afraid to fall on moron or quiters. WiF is a long game, finishing one wont be fast. So better play with a nice opponent that dont complain, is always avaliable regardless of the time of the day, for as long as you need him, dont quit, dont do suicide attack because he is pissed off or dont play like a fool because he is bored. Finding people to play WiF with isn't so easy, finding people you interact well with, have same level of play and same seriousness about history is even harder (not to speak of agreeing on a set of option to use).

[pzgndr]

My main concern with the game is when those players choose to not play another person

Why should anyone be concerned at all about how another player wants to play the game? I find it amusing that there are well-entrenched groups with such pro-AI or anti-AI feelings, or advocate PBEM versus TCP/IP as "the" way to play, or that only certain scenarios and specific game options are worthy of discussion. Not just for WiF but other games too. Matrix has the right idea in providing games that are flexible enough to satisfy most all players. [:)]

[Mad Russian]

Steve has done legendary work on this project. Thanks for that.

In terms of AI or not........well, you don't need one if you are playing other people. You need at least a competent one if you can't/aren't playing other people. This game without at least a competent AI will definitely hurt sales and ultimately if there is a new and improved version of the game rather than a straight conversion.

I would like to see both done so that the game can gain the kind of support and following from the community that the board game had. The reason 90% of us are even here is because the boardgame was so good.

I'm not concerned if the game is a little delayed. I've waited more than a decade already. Of course I'm as anxious as anybody to get my hands on the computer version but I want it to be as close to the experience as I got playing the original as possible. 

Good Hunting.

MR

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Steve has done legendary work on this project. Thanks for that.

In terms of AI or not........well, you don't need one if you are playing other people. You need at least a competent one if you can't/aren't playing other people. This game without at least a competent AI will definitely hurt sales and ultimately if there is a new and improved version of the game rather than a straight conversion.

I would like to see both done so that the game can gain the kind of support and following from the community that the board game had. The reason 90% of us are even here is because the boardgame was so good.

I'm not concerned if the game is a little delayed. I've waited more than a decade already. Of course I'm as anxious as anybody to get my hands on the computer version but I want it to be as close to the experience as I got playing the original as possible. 

Good Hunting.

MR

Hi MR how are you? I agree with you 100% on your post. Not to change the thread but how will net play work? I know we are not sure about MWIF because its not out even though it has been covered by Steve in post replies, but how about other games that you have played on net play or PBEM. I would imagine that some friends you have played the board game with have either moved away or got married which makes it harder to get a game going in someones home. [just guessing] This might bring back old friends no matter where they live, I understand hot seat just from common sense, but can you give me an example how you would play a friend in another town or city. eg: after one move or more do you send the whole map to the other player, could you please explain the difference between PBEM and net play. Not to take up your time but I am really interested in learning something other than the AI. [nothing against the AI]

Willy

[Cheesehead]

ORIGINAL: macgregor

Well as long as some insist we continue throwing requests at Steve like a short-order cook. I'm throwing one in for no extra time spent delaying wif product one for the sake of the AI. I've only waited what? 10 years to play a game that doesn't require AI mainly to placate your your very vocal...self? Steve seems to take a particular interest in the AI. So whatever wif product one delivers, there will probably be improvements to the AI for wif product 2. Would you wait 10 years for a good AI? All I know is I've waited 10 years for what I want. Thank god it's finally getting close. I've already invested well over $500 in a game that I have no one to play with. Because you would rather play a computer than a human, while not a bad thing, should not delay my game any longer than it already has. Are wif players the base? Or are they just the collateral demographic?

I've played at least a dozen WiF games the past 4 years using Vassal, all via PBEM. Met a lot of WiF players all over the world in the process. My Vassal games all proceeded at a faster pace then the local, face-to-face games I've played. I'm sure MWiF will greatly improve the PBEM method, but it's not like any of us with a computer haven't been able to play WiF since Ken Griffiths completed the first WiF mod some 5 years ago? There has also been a dedicated group playing PBEM with Cyberboard. If it wasn't for the AI, what would be the point of spending all this time to make a game hundreds of us are already playing on our computers?

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead

I've played at least a dozen WiF games the past 4 years using Vassal, all via PBEM. Met a lot of WiF players all over the world in the process. My Vassal games all proceeded at a faster pace then the local, face-to-face games I've played. I'm sure MWiF will greatly improve the PBEM method, but it's not like any of us with a computer haven't been able to play WiF since Ken Griffiths completed the first WiF mod some 5 years ago? There has also been a dedicated group playing PBEM with Cyberboard. If it wasn't for the AI, what would be the point of spending all this time to make a game hundreds of us are already playing on our computers?

The difference is that all the board game play aids (Vassal, Cyberboard, Zun Tsu, Aide de Camp, etc.) rely on the players to perform all the actions they would in real FTF gaming. They are simply a virtual version of the real game. So if a player goofs a move by moving his units as if it were Fair weather, when in fact it is Rain, or counts the interception range of a plane wrong, or does his production or oiling wrong - then it is up to his opponent to spot all that and ask for redress. The closer these are to meeting over the table, the more likely things can get fixed before everyone gets frustrated. If you use Cyberboard or AdC and exchange moves by email, then goofs can frustrate the game experience to the point where people might rather not play. Plus with the Sequence of Play WiF has, you'd need gawd knows how many emails to complete even one impulse.

But having the game arbitrate all the actual rules and provide shortcuts to the PBEM experience (as currently being showcased in the PBEM thread) are what will give this game its attraction over the virtual play aid programs. Especially for a game as complicated as WiF is.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: bo

I understand hot seat just from common sense, but can you give me an example how you would play a friend in another town or city. eg: after one move or more do you send the whole map to the other player, could you please explain the difference between PBEM and net play. Not to take up your time but I am really interested in learning something other than the AI. [nothing against the AI]

Willy

For Netplay, everyone agrees to meet online at a certain time. They all connect up to a host machine. The host runs the game, but each player can make their moves with their forces whenever appropriate. All players can simultaneously view the current map and the game situation. It is the closest you can come to meeting in person to play the game FTF. The difficulty here is the same as many have expressed above - the more players, the greater the problems in getting everyone together at the appointed time to play.

For PBEM, the game is broken into segments where one side or the other is moving. Once completed, the game file is sent to your opponent, for him to do his next segment. The advantage here is that people can do their moves when local time suits them so PBEM is good when playing someone who lives in a different time zone.