Advanced Third Reich/ World at War

[yesman68]

He is talking about the Avalon Hill Third Reich PC game. And yes, the AI is not very challenging although I don't know if I would describe it as the worst AI ever. Try playing it on a level other than Novice.

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: welk

For those who are waiting for WIF PC and want to play with 3r PC during the waiting time : you can get the game and 1.38 patch here + complete manuels + a little soft (3r gold) that allows to modify the game

http://www.specialistsilencers.com/3r.htm

Dos box is needed to use it. A very great game, and I hope that WIF PC will be a good game too. I never played with WIF boardgame (juste 3r boardgame) but I will buy WIF PC when it will be ready

I am a little confused here are we talking about computer 3rd Reich or something else? If we are talking about computer 3rd Reidh the one I removed one month after I was ripped off with the worst AI ever made for a game it was a horrible attempt to do the board game and an insult to the industry. Do you mean that 3rd Reich?

Bo

[winky51]

How it plays and the learning curve are two completely different things.

A3R/RS = Chess because the dice rolls are minor and movement and positioning is key
WIF = Blackjack because there is lots of randomness and things can go one way one turn and turn around the next when you double your bet.
ETO/PTO = Craps because you roll a F$*@ of a lot of dice over and over trying to hit your #. "I fly my bomber, I intercept at Hex A, I counter intercept at hex B, I counter counter intercept at Hex -B before you hit my bombar, oh yea I triple counter intercept your counter counter intercept at hex -B before you counter counter my intercept." And the fleet battles are looooooooong omg.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: welk

For those who are waiting for WIF PC and want to play with 3r PC during the waiting time : you can get the game and 1.38 patch here + complete manuels + a little soft (3r gold) that allows to modify the game

http://www.specialistsilencers.com/3r.htm

Dos box is needed to use it. A very great game, and I hope that WIF PC will be a good game too. I never played with WIF boardgame (juste 3r boardgame) but I will buy WIF PC when it will be ready

I would like to thank you Welk for the information on 3rd Reich I have downloaded and it plays really well but I have forgotten most of the rules even though the computer does not allow you to make a mistake, I make enough on my own.

Bo

[welk]

Ye, it's 3R PC AVALON HILL Game.

The AI is not very good but you can use the game with hard level AND (the most important !) to make modifications with a little soft named 3RGold : you can modify some important things like : Grow rate, BRP base, awailable BRP, inf, air and naval counters types for each country, etc... during the game : so, in a human vs human hot set game, you can use 3r PC as a board game with "what if" played by physical roll : all modifications are then made with 3RGold in the saved files of game : very funny.

Now, I am learning the rules of WIF, to be ready when the PC matrix game will be awailable. I have to say : very heavy monster game...[:D] but I like that sort of games.
One question for the WIF staff, please : I am modder, and will the players be able to make graph modifications ?

[lparkh]

There is a 3R mod for Strategic Command II which looked pretty thorough. The AI would likely be better....

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: winky51

How it plays and the learning curve are two completely different things.

A3R/RS = Chess because the dice rolls are minor and movement and positioning is key
WIF = Blackjack because there is lots of randomness and things can go one way one turn and turn around the next when you double your bet.
ETO/PTO = Craps because you roll a F$*@ of a lot of dice over and over trying to hit your #. "I fly my bomber, I intercept at Hex A, I counter intercept at hex B, I counter counter intercept at Hex -B before you hit my bombar, oh yea I triple counter intercept your counter counter intercept at hex -B before you counter counter my intercept." And the fleet battles are looooooooong omg.

Maybe you played WiF FE so long ago that you only remember luck.
People often only remember bad luck, but rarely bad decisions that would have had needed a lot of luck to succeed but didn't.

[winky51]

Most WIF games I played a shift in win % can usually be attributed to 1-2 summer turns either ending early or some weirdo weather pattern. It didnt say it determines the game, it just has a serious impact. And for some weird reason it doesnt even out.

Like if a game looks as if the axis are going to win if they continue along their path 70% because they are crushing Russia (BAM 1 end of turn June, BAM 1 end of turn July) now it drops to 50% because the allies passed.

Guess the argument can be made is that if the allies were any good they wouldnt need to pass.

Ive also seen the endless summer turn in Russia where POOF there goes the game.

Ive seen in 1944 the USA fleet absolutely destroyed by the Japs or just the opposite in 1942.

Ive seen a german player pretty much never fail to roll a 1 on convoy searches for 2 years straight with their suns.

ive seen a german player never roll above a 12 in barbarosa for the 1st 2 years... actually this was the last game my buddy played (I wasnt in it) and he is the best player we got.

Its a shift not an absolute. I have had 1 in 5 games where the shift wasnt significant and the luck was even.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: winky51

Most WIF games I played a shift in win % can usually be attributed to 1-2 summer turns either ending early or some weirdo weather pattern. It didnt say it determines the game, it just has a serious impact. And for some weird reason it doesnt even out.

Like if a game looks as if the axis are going to win if they continue along their path 70% because they are crushing Russia (BAM 1 end of turn June, BAM 1 end of turn July) now it drops to 50% because the allies passed.

Guess the argument can be made is that if the allies were any good they wouldnt need to pass.

Ive also seen the endless summer turn in Russia where POOF there goes the game.

Ive seen in 1944 the USA fleet absolutely destroyed by the Japs or just the opposite in 1942.

Ive seen a german player pretty much never fail to roll a 1 on convoy searches for 2 years straight with their suns.

ive seen a german player never roll above a 12 in barbarosa for the 1st 2 years... actually this was the last game my buddy played (I wasnt in it) and he is the best player we got.

Its a shift not an absolute. I have had 1 in 5 games where the shift wasnt significant and the luck was even.

To some degree, I agree. There are critical points in just about every game. And if the dice go one way or the other, then that has a significant effect.

But MWIF offers so many opportunities for the players to affect the outcome by good or poor play, that the dice have less effect than the players' skills (in my opinion). Note that I am not saying that the dice even out in the long run. Rather, the difference in the skill levels of the players determines the outcome far more often than the luck of the dice.

[Zorachus99]

Some of the best council is, "Don't get a 1-10 split" during naval combat.  The advantage is so great, it's nearly always a mistake to ignore. 
 
AI hint... if you can kill a TRS in gauranteed surface combat, it's nearly always worth it.  Might be a possiblity to query.  CV's have good value as well if the result is an unavoidable 'X' result.  Usually you get this in combination of chart shifts and spending 3 suprize points to choose a target.
 
 

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: winky51

Most WIF games I played a shift in win % can usually be attributed to 1-2 summer turns either ending early or some weirdo weather pattern. It didnt say it determines the game, it just has a serious impact. And for some weird reason it doesnt even out.

Like if a game looks as if the axis are going to win if they continue along their path 70% because they are crushing Russia (BAM 1 end of turn June, BAM 1 end of turn July) now it drops to 50% because the allies passed.

Guess the argument can be made is that if the allies were any good they wouldnt need to pass.

Ive also seen the endless summer turn in Russia where POOF there goes the game.

Ive seen in 1944 the USA fleet absolutely destroyed by the Japs or just the opposite in 1942.

Ive seen a german player pretty much never fail to roll a 1 on convoy searches for 2 years straight with their suns.

ive seen a german player never roll above a 12 in barbarosa for the 1st 2 years... actually this was the last game my buddy played (I wasnt in it) and he is the best player we got.

Its a shift not an absolute. I have had 1 in 5 games where the shift wasnt significant and the luck was even.

It's funny how often people remember the bad low probability rolls they had to endure and forget the good ones they enjoyed. You need my WIF Die Roller and Luck Tracker Visual Basic program which tabulates all the rolls and keeps track of their probabilities and records them by roll, session and game for each player. Then at the end of the game you'll know if you really have the right to bitch.

[gridley]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It's funny how often people remember the bad low probability rolls they had to endure and forget the good ones they enjoyed. You need my WIF Die Roller and Luck Tracker Visual Basic program which tabulates all the rolls and keeps track of their probabilities and records them by roll, session and game for each player. Then at the end of the game you'll know if you really have the right to bitch.

Then they would just bitch that they didn't get the good dice on the important rolls.[8|]

But winky is right about the shifts. But few are game breakers, most just make you adjust strategies or objectives.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: winky51

Most WIF games I played a shift in win % can usually be attributed to 1-2 summer turns either ending early or some weirdo weather pattern. It didnt say it determines the game, it just has a serious impact. And for some weird reason it doesnt even out.

Like if a game looks as if the axis are going to win if they continue along their path 70% because they are crushing Russia (BAM 1 end of turn June, BAM 1 end of turn July) now it drops to 50% because the allies passed.

Guess the argument can be made is that if the allies were any good they wouldnt need to pass.

Ive also seen the endless summer turn in Russia where POOF there goes the game.

Ive seen in 1944 the USA fleet absolutely destroyed by the Japs or just the opposite in 1942.

Ive seen a german player pretty much never fail to roll a 1 on convoy searches for 2 years straight with their suns.

ive seen a german player never roll above a 12 in barbarosa for the 1st 2 years... actually this was the last game my buddy played (I wasnt in it) and he is the best player we got.

Its a shift not an absolute. I have had 1 in 5 games where the shift wasnt significant and the luck was even.

It's funny how often people remember the bad low probability rolls they had to endure and forget the good ones they enjoyed. You need my WIF Die Roller and Luck Tracker Visual Basic program which tabulates all the rolls and keeps track of their probabilities and records them by roll, session and game for each player. Then at the end of the game you'll know if you really have the right to bitch.

Would that program take into account that the different attacks are of different importance?

For Example. One might think a Axis side failing 13 assaults on Gibraltar unlucky and that the failure to capture Gibraltar after a heavy commitment to capture the hex decided the game. On the other hand the Axis side might have made average rolls all in all during the game so are they then still considered unlucky?

[paulderynck]

Version 3 tabulates the rolls based simply on probability normalized to a scale of -10 to +10 (minus being a failure, + being a success).

Version 4 is having its functional spec written currently to correct some sequencing issues in naval Search and Intercept, and to fix the fact red-circled planes were not handled in Ground Striking, and to adjust the luck measurement for weather and combat because desired weather does not have a way to define success versus a linear 'target number' (plus say all higher or all lower numbers) and combat will include a comparison of attacker objective (FREX inflict casualties, or don't flip, or take the hex) versus attacker and defender losses. Also players will have the ability to define an agreed "multiple" for the weather and initiative rolls - essentially making them worth more than a single air battle roll FREX.

I'm also thinking of adding a way to designate a combat as having higher importance - again a "multiplier" - which would be used for things like an attack on Leningrad or Gibraltar, etc. However we have already had some disagreements about setting target numbers for success (these are the main reasons for making the changes for weather and combat). So it would be goofey to have something built as a play aid turn out to actually slow the game down! So I think that function will work like the doubling cube in Backgammon where once you use it, you can't do so again until after your opponent does.

But Orm, you and Gridley are right - there will always be claims made that this roll or that roll was far more important to the outcome of the game then what the program calculated based simply on probability. That is why another spec for Version 4 will be to turn off the measurement of player luck and just retain the info about the Means and Standard Deviations of all the die rolls. BTW, if you ever wondered how many die rolls are typically made in a game of WiFFE, we are just starting MA45 and there have been 4525 rolls (excluding choosing builds, which we do the old fashioned way).

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Version 3 tabulates the rolls based simply on probability normalized to a scale of -10 to +10 (minus being a failure, + being a success).

Version 4 is having its functional spec written currently to correct some sequencing issues in naval Search and Intercept, and to fix the fact red-circled planes were not handled in Ground Striking, and to adjust the luck measurement for weather and combat because desired weather does not have a way to define success versus a linear 'target number' (plus say all higher or all lower numbers) and combat will include a comparison of attacker objective (FREX inflict casualties, or don't flip, or take the hex) versus attacker and defender losses. Also players will have the ability to define an agreed "multiple" for the weather and initiative rolls - essentially making them worth more than a single air battle roll FREX.

I'm also thinking of adding a way to designate a combat as having higher importance - again a "multiplier" - which would be used for things like an attack on Leningrad or Gibraltar, etc. However we have already had some disagreements about setting target numbers for success (these are the main reasons for making the changes for weather and combat). So it would be goofey to have something built as a play aid turn out to actually slow the game down! So I think that function will work like the doubling cube in Backgammon where once you use it, you can't do so again until after your opponent does.

But Orm, you and Gridley are right - there will always be claims made that this roll or that roll was far more important to the outcome of the game then what the program calculated based simply on probability. That is why another spec for Version 4 will be to turn off the measurement of player luck and just retain the info about the Means and Standard Deviations of all the die rolls. BTW, if you ever wondered how many die rolls are typically made in a game of WiFFE, we are just starting MA45 and there have been 4525 rolls (excluding choosing builds, which we do the old fashioned way).

One person's unlucky roll[:(] is his opponent's lucky rollInstead of 13 quasi-reasonable attacks on Gibraltar failing, consider a single mediocre attack on Gibraltar succeeding.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

One person's unlucky roll[:(] is his opponent's lucky rollInstead of 13 quasi-reasonable attacks on Gibraltar failing, consider a single mediocre attack on Gibraltar succeeding.

Yes. That is so true. [:D]

I considered making the example of a suprise invasion on Gibraltar by Italy in Septemper 1939 and capturing the rock on a 1 in 10 roll . But with Gibraltar lost that early and Spain joining the Axis side the game was over before it began.

That luck (or bad allied play?) just made us open something to drink and begin a new game.

[npilgaard]

ORIGINAL: Missouri Rebel
As to a future for ASL on computer, that would really be the best. I got into that game a bit right when Hasbro was going under and bought every module for it (and duplicate copies still in shrink wrap) with the hopes of finding opponents within my group of friends. They quickly tired of the rule reading and quit their efforts after only a few infantry scenarios. Since then I have studied the rules in detail and have found that I really enjoy the system so I, for one, would greatly benefit from a computer adaptation of it.

I think that the pbem/online play program Vassal was originally created for playing ASL over the net.
Have never played ASL or used Vassal, though, so don't know how well it works (However, I have used Cyberboard, which is in many ways similar to Vassal, to play a pbem game of WiF (Fascist Tide) and it worked fairly well, so maybe Vassal ASL will work as well).

[brian brian]

ORIGINAL: winky51


Ive seen in 1944 the USA fleet absolutely destroyed by the Japs or just the opposite in 1942.

hmmm, that would be kind of like the ..... Battle of Midway perhaps? Even with the US intell advantage that one could have gone either way and to me has always been a good example of why we roll dice to decide a gaming battle.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

ORIGINAL: winky51


Ive seen in 1944 the USA fleet absolutely destroyed by the Japs or just the opposite in 1942.

hmmm, that would be kind of like the ..... Battle of Midway perhaps? Even with the US intell advantage that one could have gone either way and to me has always been a good example of why we roll dice to decide a gaming battle.

Warspite1


Brian Brian - I couldn`t agree more. When you read battle histories its incredible how many could have gone either way but for some piece of critical luck - good or bad. It would not be difficult to imagine Coral Sea, Savo Island (and thus Guadalcanal) or Midway going completely the other way than they did historically.

[po8crg]

ORIGINAL: coregames

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish
I thought I saw that this project was cancelled 2 or 3 years ago. I could be wrong.

Given how the two products, MWiF and MaWaW, might step on eachother's toes a bit, that wouldn't surprise me.

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish
Avalon Hill was sold a couple of years later.

Interesting line of acquisition: AH > TSR > WoC > Hasbro.
Does Hasbro, GMT or Bruce Harper now own the A3R franchise? I just visited the GMT site and it's still up; Harper and GMT own AWAW at least, but does that include A3R and ERS?

AH was sold direct to Hasbro (by Monarch Press, its previous parent company).

SPI was bought by TSR, which was bought by WotC, which was bought by Hasbro. All the wargames, roleplaying games, etc, are gathered together in the WotC division of Hasbro.

Hasbro / WotC sublicense the rights to many of the old Avalon Hill / SPI wargames they own to various specialist companies that publish them and continue to develop them. For example, MMP license Advanced Squad Leader and the GCACW series, GMT license A3R and ERS, and then both of them have developed their own products based on those systems.

Hasbro are prepared to negotiate reasonable terms for sublicensing their AH/SPI copyrights on any games that aren't already being reprinted.

For games that AH made under licence themselves, the rights have usually reverted to their original publisher, e.g. Empires in Arms back to Australian Design Group, Civilization back to Francis Tresham.

There are a handful of games where the rights are such a mess they are unlikely ever to be reprinted, notably Advanced Civilization and 1830; for both of these, you would need licences from both Tresham and from Hasbro.

[welk]

For example, MMP license Advanced Squad Leader and the GCACW series, GMT license A3R and ERS, and then both of them have developed their own products based on those systems.



Any informations about adaptation of AR3 (Advanced Third Reich, I suppose) as PC game, with the old Rising sun (3R in Pacific Theater) ? It would be nice to be able to buy a "Advanced Rhird Reich PC -Europe+ Pacific theater" !![:'(] : To have these two monster games (A3R+Rising Sun and WIF) on my PC : the absolute Dream...[8D])