Pearl Harbor etc. FOW

[Orm]

The best fog of war is when your opponent see your forces but does not see what you intend to do. When you manage that the suprise can be total and devastating to your opponents morale. This can be done in World of Flames. Both with minor operations and at times major, game changing, operations.

One example of this is a realy early declaration of war on Commonwealth by Japan. Japan was in no way ready for this war but the Allies was even less ready. This DOW (along with several lucky die rolls) made the CW navy take staggering losses.In this game the Allies morale collapsed with a surrender of the Allies.

[warspite1]

I have an old TV that's been around for donkey years, tried and tested if you're interested, and a VCR, ...

I presume that was a staggeringly feeble attempt at humour? Some things can be bettered by amendments over time. Some things can be spoilt by - so called - improvements.

World In Flames does not use, does not need, and would not be improved with "FOW". Live with it [8|]

[bo]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I have an old TV that's been around for donkey years, tried and tested if you're interested, and a VCR, ...

I presume that was a staggeringly feeble attempt at humour? Some things can be bettered by amendments over time. Some things can be spoilt by - so called - improvements.

World In Flames does not use, does not need, and would not be improved with "FOW". Live with it [8|]

Hey Mac, hey Warspite, easy guys open forums are just that, open forums with all opinions honored as being mostly constructive. I have learned my lesson with some negative comments in the past[:-]
The post I started was a question about FOW, not trying to change anything just curious. I do have a problem with [live with it] Warspite we are now talking about the power of the computer and what it can do with, excuse the comment but an old board game, it would seem to me that in the board game FOW was impossible so how do you know if it is good or bad [not being argumentative] All of the comments in the above posts, well almost all of them were constructive and said with true game passion, and as was stated not needed in the MWIF game. Okay again no problem with that leave it the way everyone always played it, but hmmmmm the computer is a pretty powerful tool and could make a great game even better with new innovations. [[&:]I guess]

Bo

[warspite1]

Bo lets be clear - having an opinion that happens to be different to mine is not an issue for me. What I took exception to was the way my opinion was rubbished.

As far as the power of the computer is concerned; yes of course there are lots of ways that the computer can make playing the game easier (stopping false moves), and indeed better (China being on the same scale as Europe) but if memory serves, Steve's brief was to bring to the market a game that represents WIF as closely as possible, not to make wholesale changes.

I maintain that IMO, FOW is not needed and will not improve the game. If people want it as an option in MWIF2 then that;s great however. But that is just my opinion and that is the last I will say about that, but I do not need someone in a snide fashion telling me that having that opinion makes me someone from out of the Ark; a simple I don't agree because, works.

One final thing though. Some people do not seem to realise that programming such a new feature at this stage would delay the game no end. When do we want this game released?

[Red Prince]

With the numerous possibilities for different combinations of wars, game modes, nation assignments, etc. I don't know if it would even be possible to get a working FOW programmed to run bug-free in any reasonable amount of time. And, while the rules forbid the USA player from telling even his allies the exact entry pool numbers, interplayer communications force players to use the honour system. Fog of War in NetPlay or PBEM would have the same problem. What's to stop one player from telling another what he knows?

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

With the numerous possibilities for different combinations of wars, game modes, nation assignments, etc. I don't know if it would even be possible to get a working FOW programmed to run bug-free in any reasonable amount of time. And, while the rules forbid the USA player from telling even his allies the exact entry pool numbers, interplayer communications force players to use the honour system. Fog of War in NetPlay or PBEM would have the same problem. What's to stop one player from telling another what he knows?

I would hope integrity would stop the dedicated player Red,
hey Warspite that could have been Crussdaddy using Mac's name[:D])] and you are right a new feature like that would push the games debut back and trust me War I don't want that but who knows maybe the evil genius has already put it in[;)][no names]

Bo

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

With the numerous possibilities for different combinations of wars, game modes, nation assignments, etc. I don't know if it would even be possible to get a working FOW programmed to run bug-free in any reasonable amount of time. And, while the rules forbid the USA player from telling even his allies the exact entry pool numbers, interplayer communications force players to use the honour system. Fog of War in NetPlay or PBEM would have the same problem. What's to stop one player from telling another what he knows?

When you get down to the nitty gritty as to what Fog Of War means, a wealth of different opinions appear. No two people agree. In fact, they are often astonished to discover that other people don't understand the 'rule' the same way they do.

When I looked into coding FOW (briefly - 10 hours or so several years ago), what I discovered was the rule could not be written in clear English for everyone to understand, much less get everyone to agree on. If it can't be written in plain language, it certainly can't be written in code.

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: bo

I would hope integrity would stop the dedicated player Red,

Ahhh, a dreamer. [:D] I would hope so, too. All it takes, though, is one bad nut to ruin a good war . . .

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

With the numerous possibilities for different combinations of wars, game modes, nation assignments, etc. I don't know if it would even be possible to get a working FOW programmed to run bug-free in any reasonable amount of time. And, while the rules forbid the USA player from telling even his allies the exact entry pool numbers, interplayer communications force players to use the honour system. Fog of War in NetPlay or PBEM would have the same problem. What's to stop one player from telling another what he knows?

When you get down to the nitty gritty as to what Fog Of War means, a wealth of different opinions appear. No two people agree. In fact, they are often astonished to discover that other people don't understand the 'rule' the same way they do.

When I looked into coding FOW (briefly - 10 hours or so several years ago), what I discovered was the rule could not be written in clear English for everyone to understand, much less get everyone to agree on. If it can't be written in plain language, it certainly can't be written in code.

There you go no FOW, I am not saying its needed I am just used to it in all the computer games I play, and never playing the board game I will take Warspites word for it that it is not needed.

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: bo

I would hope integrity would stop the dedicated player Red,

Ahhh, a dreamer. [:D] I would hope so, too. All it takes, though, is one bad nut to ruin a good war . . .

How did you know I am a dreamer have you been talking to my wife.[:D]
Really Red I used to play cod2 and it took me a long time to actually believe that players cheated, talk about being naive whoooo. I guess its because how can you compare talents in a given game if you are going to cheat. Did I ever kick a ball out of the rough playing golf, OF COURSE I DID, but that's not cheating that's par for the course[;)] In reality I cannot imagine what you players went through to play the board game with all the rules and such, you people have my highest esteem[&o]

Bo

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: bo

I would hope integrity would stop the dedicated player Red,

Ahhh, a dreamer. [:D] I would hope so, too. All it takes, though, is one bad nut to ruin a good war . . .

How did you know I am a dreamer have you been talking to my wife.[:D]
Really Red I used to play cod2 and it took me a long time to actually believe that players cheated, talk about being naive whoooo. I guess its because how can you compare talents in a given game if you are going to cheat. Did I ever kick a ball out of the rough playing golf, OF COURSE I DID, but that's not cheating that's par for the course[;)] In reality I cannot imagine what you players went through to play the board game with all the rules and such, you people have my highest esteem[&o]

Bo

I agree with you about golf. If you aren't pro, the purpose of golf is to unwind and have fun.

I also agree with your praise concerning the board game, though I can't take any for myself [:(] I've owned it for 15+ years, but never had a group to play with. I'm getting my first practical experience with it now, same as you. I just hope I'm not ruined for play vs. people; I've done a lot of pseudo-cheating to get the conditions I needed for testing [:-]

[bo]

You said you have had the game for 15 years and never played in a group, I can understand that because humans don't live in frozen Maine and Moose don't play WIF [:D] Solo is really tough because that's how I play WIF computer now and as I stated before I have never lost to myself[;)]but that was pure luck, is that what you do play solo, and how do you do that and have enjoyment from this game?

Bo

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: bo

You said you have had the game for 15 years and never played in a group, I can understand that because humans don't live in frozen Maine and Moose don't play WIF [:D] Solo is really tough because that's how I play WIF computer now and as I stated before I have never lost to myself[;)]but that was pure luck, is that what you do play solo, and how do you do that and have enjoyment from this game?

Bo

You think you're joking about Maine, but it's the truth [:)] I've never played the board game solo, either. Read through the rules a couple times a year, set up one game with some friends in college, but never started a turn. We beta-test mostly in Solitaire mode, but Steve is hoping to get a few NetPlay tests going between beta-testers in the next few weeks.

I also find solo to be a little difficult. Way too many things to try to keep track of. With practice it gets easier, but it's still a lot to think about. I'm sure it's nothing like playing a real person, or even an adequte AI.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: bo

You said you have had the game for 15 years and never played in a group, I can understand that because humans don't live in frozen Maine and Moose don't play WIF [:D] Solo is really tough because that's how I play WIF computer now and as I stated before I have never lost to myself[;)]but that was pure luck, is that what you do play solo, and how do you do that and have enjoyment from this game?

Bo

You think you're joking about Maine, but it's the truth [:)] I've never played the board game solo, either. Read through the rules a couple times a year, set up one game with some friends in college, but never started a turn. We beta-test mostly in Solitaire mode, but Steve is hoping to get a few NetPlay tests going between beta-testers in the next few weeks.

I also find solo to be a little difficult. Way too many things to try to keep track of. With practice it gets easier, but it's still a lot to think about. I'm sure it's nothing like playing a real person, or even an adequte AI.

Ok all joking aside Red, I have as you know ADG's computer WIF game and from a novice's point of view I find it pretty well done and if someone really want's to learn the game spend the 20 bucks and get it, it is pretty basic but it follows all the rules I believe up up 2002 when I think he [Chris] finished the game, were there any patches? Don't know if there were or not but I doubt if they will do any now or later [patches] You can actually play the game and either make the battles bloody or keep the attacks low keyed, of course there is no FOW[:)]good lord not going there [:-] but I find it very playable, I have learned naval moves, air moves and ground moves and I am using them better with each day that goes by, still not good when it comes to sea boxes, oil and point productions. I have been posting with Peter from England who just bought the game but I am not quite sure if this game can be done with PBEM, When Steve finishes MWIF I will probably need some help in setting up PBEM because I only did it once about a year ago and did not feel Wastelands did it right so I stopped using it. My son plays Battlefront's Combat mission Normandy with several PBEM people at the same time and loves it even though the games AI is excellent or at worst pretty decent. He would rather play a human than an AI and only uses the AI when some of his opposition is away on vacation or business trips. When I look at the map Steve posted for us in one of the posts it is truly like day and night over ADG's and also the counters by Steve are improved over ADG's counters both in looks and information on the units. But as I said before I find solace in playing ADG's game while waiting for the masterpiece[&o]

Bo

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

With the numerous possibilities for different combinations of wars, game modes, nation assignments, etc. I don't know if it would even be possible to get a working FOW programmed to run bug-free in any reasonable amount of time. And, while the rules forbid the USA player from telling even his allies the exact entry pool numbers, interplayer communications force players to use the honour system. Fog of War in NetPlay or PBEM would have the same problem. What's to stop one player from telling another what he knows?

The rules actually forbids the US player to show the US Entry Markers to anyone. The US player is still free to tell anyone what the entry level is or what entry markers he has.

The US player may, of course, be lying. [;)]



Cut from RAC: 13.3.1 Entry markers
....
You can look at your own markers after you have committed them to a particular entry pool but you can’t
show them to anyone else (even on your own side).


Cut from FAQ: Q13.2-1
Question: You can't show pact values and entry levels to anyone, but can you tell other people the values?

Answer: Yes of course, you may be lying (or got it wrong) though. Date 23/12/2007

[mlees]

Think of it this way:

The Japanese player moves his Pearl Harbor strike force into the Hawaiian Islands Sea Zone during the naval movement phase.

The US player, seeing that an attack is coming, decides to save what he can. Being at peace with everyone, that player can only select the "combined action" type. (10.1) Being at peace, each unit is counted against the naval move limit. (11.4.1) The US has a limit of moving 3 naval units out of Pearl, so the US player can move the Enterprise and Lexington CV's out of PH, into the Christmas Island sea zone to save them from attack.

The next IJN turn commences the fireworks.

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: mlees

Think of it this way:

The Japanese player moves his Pearl Harbor strike force into the Hawaiian Islands Sea Zone during the naval movement phase.

The US player, seeing that an attack is coming, decides to save what he can. Being at peace with everyone, that player can only select the "combined action" type. (10.1) Being at peace, each unit is counted against the naval move limit. (11.4.1) The US has a limit of moving 3 naval units out of Pearl, so the US player can move the Enterprise and Lexington CV's out of PH, into the Christmas Island sea zone to save them from attack.

The next IJN turn commences the fireworks.

If there's even a 20-30% chance of a DOW on Japan, the USA would be wise to try it, just to avoid the surprise impulse. If there isn't even that much of a chance, it's probably pretty early in the game and well worth the damage Japan can inflict in terms of extra Build Points over the rest of the game.