Need Help? Ask The Semi-Experts

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: jglazier

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Grizzly

I am a complete WiF newbie. Where is the best place to start?

- Manuals?
- Video tutorials?
- In game tutorials?

And where to go from there?

warspite1

I am not a complete newb, but even so I would say the tutorials are a must. They take time to go through, but given the manuals don't seem to really tell you how to do things, I think the videos are invaluable.

The manuals don't really tell you how to do things? Well, this sounds like a big problem. I better start looking at the manuals to see what you mean, but their 500+ pages had better teach me how to do things in the game.

It depends on your definition of How.[:D]

The manuals do cover everything, with instructions on all the menus and menu items, the full sequence of play, all the informational forms and all the 'decision' forms. For both kinds of forms, there are typically 3 subsections: back ground material from Rules as Coded, a description of the form's layout (the labels, buttons, maps, unit lists, and tables), and How to Use the Form. So, I would say that the manuals do tell you how to do things.

There is also a very long section (3.4) with advice from experienced players on what to do when and how to do it well (e.g., air movement & combat, naval movement & combat, armor, HQs, etc.). So in another sense of the word, the manuals tell you 'how' to play the game.

What the tutorial videos do is show you how to pick up and move units, amongst many other things. Clearly the manuals do not have a "watch, listen, and learn" aspect to them. That's most likely what Warspite means when he says the manuals do not teach you 'how'.

But maybe he means that it doesn't teach you how to play the game well. In that sense he is certainly correct. There is advice and many examples, but MWIF doesn't really attempt to teach you all the subtleties of playing well. Really, that depends on the scenario, the major power, the units in question, and optional rules, just to mention some of the more important things to take into consideration when playing.

My thoughts on this are that the aspects of the game related to making brilliant moves (or at least not making bad ones) is up to each player to learn on his own. Only so much can be spoon fed, before both the writer and the reader get annoyed with the level of detail.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Lingering Frey

Reducing the size of the detailed map seems like it will solve some of my issues. (I'm not sure what you meant by reducing the thickness of the border of the window. If that is something you can do separate from reducing the size of the window overall, I don't know how to do it.) One of the first things I have been doing when starting the game is making the map larger so that I can reduce the amount of scrolling around I have to do.

I just spent some time playing with the "Screen Layout" form since you mentioned the "Redefine" thing. I hadn't delved into the tiny box that said "New Game" in it, but which didn't do anything when you click on it. I'm still puzzled by why "Add to list" doesn't have any files to add. Not sure what that means. I have my new layout saved and "new game" appears below it as a link. When I click "new game" my redefined layout reappears (same as my saved version), only the link to new game vanishes and the name of the form changes. It's...puzzling, but not getting in my way. I read the appendix information about it, but that left me more confused.

I did notice from the appendix that there was some reference to boolean variables which included "form visibility". I'm assuming that part of the appendix is for folks who understanding moding and such, it's beyond me. Is there a setting within the game that I can change that will cause new windows I open to always appear definitively on top of everything and stay there until I dismiss them? After all, if I am issuing a command to open a new window it is probably because I want to use it (if you see what I mean...not trying to be snarky.) Are there times when you issue a command to open a window but you would NOT want it to be on top?

The appendix sections on User Created Files, are mostly technical information. A better place to learn about Screen Layouts is in section 8.6, which is devoted to that topic and is intended to help the player work with screen layouts.

[FroBodine]

Thank you again, Steve, for your continued excellent responses. As long as the manuals and/or tutorials teach me how to use the user interface, how to move units, how to initiate attacks, both simple and complex ground attacks with air units, artillery, etc. included in the attack, then I will be happy. All the forms and screens can be figured out by reading the manuals, I'm sure.

I was just worried that the manual did not tell you how to move units to set up attacks, and how to resolve your attacks, detailed things like that.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Lingering Frey

I spoke too soon. Do I really need to move around the windows every time I shift to a different major power?

Probably not.

But sometimes a player may want to have different layouts for different major powers. China doesn't worry about naval operations. Japan wants a tight focus on China and the western Pacific. The Commonwealth needs to see the entire globe.

So, I wrote the code so screen layouts can be tailored for each major power. Now in practice, most players (especially when they start playing) wants the screen layout to be the same for all the major powers. They have enough to learn without having the location of stuff changing each time a major power changes.

The result is that you need to made any changes you want and use the Redefine menu item on the Screen Layouts list/form for each major power to make it part of the permanent memory (i.e., stored on disk) for the definition of the screen layout (.SLY) file.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: jglazier

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

I am not a complete newb, but even so I would say the tutorials are a must. They take time to go through, but given the manuals don't seem to really tell you how to do things, I think the videos are invaluable.

The manuals don't really tell you how to do things? Well, this sounds like a big problem. I better start looking at the manuals to see what you mean, but their 500+ pages had better teach me how to do things in the game.

It depends on your definition of How.[:D]

The manuals do cover everything, with instructions on all the menus and menu items, the full sequence of play, all the informational forms and all the 'decision' forms. For both kinds of forms, there are typically 3 subsections: back ground material from Rules as Coded, a description of the form's layout (the labels, buttons, maps, unit lists, and tables), and How to Use the Form. So, I would say that the manuals do tell you how to do things.

There is also a very long section (3.4) with advice from experienced players on what to do when and how to do it well (e.g., air movement & combat, naval movement & combat, armor, HQs, etc.). So in another sense of the word, the manuals tell you 'how' to play the game.

What the tutorial videos do is show you how to pick up and move units, amongst many other things. Clearly the manuals do not have a "watch, listen, and learn" aspect to them. That's most likely what Warspite means when he says the manuals do not teach you 'how'.

But maybe he means that it doesn't teach you how to play the game well. In that sense he is certainly correct. There is advice and many examples, but MWIF doesn't really attempt to teach you all the subtleties of playing well. Really, that depends on the scenario, the major power, the units in question, and optional rules, just to mention some of the more important things to take into consideration when playing.

My thoughts on this are that the aspects of the game related to making brilliant moves (or at least not making bad ones) is up to each player to learn on his own. Only so much can be spoon fed, before both the writer and the reader get annoyed with the level of detail.

warspite1

No, I am not particularly interested in a manual that teaches you the minutiae of how to play well (although I did like the players notes and tips that ADG included with the rules and scenarios).

The manuals comprehensively explain the rules - no problem there.

What they do not do - not that I can see anyway, is explain how physically you do things on the computer. For example, simple but vital things like how do you call up and lock certain forms.

Some people will probably get this - those who seem to find their way intuitively around computers - but that's not me and I have spent a lot of today trying to work out practical things like the above than actually play the game and reading the rules.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: HR2

I have a question- Is it totally necessary to read the manual to play the game?

I just don't have the patient to read- anything (I might have finished one book in my 67 year life:) I did read some manuals back in the day with board games like SL,3R etc. (and the ensuing arguments:)

I've played GGWitE, SC global, etc with no rule reading and do very well due to my vast experience. Or at the least would skimming some important rules be enough?

I was trying to figure out if it's a total computer game minus the AI that would enforce the rules. I read above yes but bought the game it earlier today after hemming and hollering to find out myself:)

Of course I was going to buy it loving strategic games but will anxiously await the AI addon

Not totally necessary. But partially necessary part of the time.[:)] It depends on what you can pick up from the other sources of information, e.g., tutorials of different flavors.

Probably a better solution to your preference to not reading all the manuals, lies in the fact that each of the forms and phases/subphases of the game have Help buttons, which display selected pages from the Players Manuals as context sensitive help. So if you come to a point where you have a question, a Help button will bring up pretty much the same information as the Players Manual has on the subject in question. That's more of a "read up on it when you need to" solution.

[FroBodine]

That is mainly what I am talking about. Understanding the rules is one thing, and I'm sure the manuals do a more than excellent job of that.

Understanding how to actually do things with the user interface is a different animal altogether. This is what I hope to learn from the manuals and/or tutorials, and is what is often neglected in wargames manuals, unfortunately.

This is another reason why this community is so crucial to a game of this complexity, and I am glad you all are here to help us newbies figure things out.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: jglazier

That is mainly what I am talking about. Understanding the rules is one thing, and I'm sure the manuals do a more than excellent job of that.

Understanding how to actually do things with the user interface is a different animal altogether. This is what I hope to learn from the manuals and/or tutorials, and is what is often neglected in wargames manuals, unfortunately.

This is another reason why this community is so crucial to a game of this complexity, and I am glad you all are here to help us newbies figure things out.

warspite1

I have mentioned before that I hope this forum becomes similar to the WITP-AE forum which, in the main, is full of knowlegible and helpful people who are happy to assist newcomers.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Gendarme

I am going to buy this game but I have a question first:

I am probably going to get a new computer possibly by Christmas, and I don't want to wait until then to buy Wif. So it will still be on my old machine. Is the game usable on more than one machine? If not, how will I transfer it over from the old to new computer?

Thanks.

Anthony DeChristopher

Not a problem. You can install the program on all the computers you own. But there is just one serial number - so just one user.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: jglazier

Thank you again, Steve, for your continued excellent responses. As long as the manuals and/or tutorials teach me how to use the user interface, how to move units, how to initiate attacks, both simple and complex ground attacks with air units, artillery, etc. included in the attack, then I will be happy. All the forms and screens can be figured out by reading the manuals, I'm sure.

I was just worried that the manual did not tell you how to move units to set up attacks, and how to resolve your attacks, detailed things like that.

A few things might have slipped through the cracks in my writing the manuals but I am waaaaaay over to end of the "pays attention to details" scale.

I started writing the manuals years ago (December 2007), in many cases using what I wrote as specifications for writing the code. They have been reviewed by dozens of beta testers through the years as well as a professional editor hired by Matrix Games. When people ask "100 months to develop MWIF?"; "Who knows where the time goes?"; well, the answer to some degree lies in making the Players Manual meet my minimum standards for what a Players Manual should be.

[HR2]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: HR2

I have a question- Is it totally necessary to read the manual to play the game?

I just don't have the patient to read- anything (I might have finished one book in my 67 year life:) I did read some manuals back in the day with board games like SL,3R etc. (and the ensuing arguments:)

I've played GGWitE, SC global, etc with no rule reading and do very well due to my vast experience. Or at the least would skimming some important rules be enough?

I was trying to figure out if it's a total computer game minus the AI that would enforce the rules. I read above yes but bought the game it earlier today after hemming and hollering to find out myself:)

Of course I was going to buy it loving strategic games but will anxiously await the AI addon

Not totally necessary. But partially necessary part of the time.[:)] It depends on what you can pick up from the other sources of information, e.g., tutorials of different flavors.

Probably a better solution to your preference to not reading all the manuals, lies in the fact that each of the forms and phases/subphases of the game have Help buttons, which display selected pages from the Players Manuals as context sensitive help. So if you come to a point where you have a question, a Help button will bring up pretty much the same information as the Players Manual has on the subject in question. That's more of a "read up on it when you need to" solution.

Thanks for the feedback. I was kind of hoping that would be the response- a little reading here and there:)
I'm doing the set up for Guadalcanal now and haven't read anything yet:) Except not sure where to put the Japanese. All those carriers I wouldn't imagine all being at Truk for the campaign but some in Japan in case of US attack:)

[bo]

ORIGINAL: jglazier

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: jglazier




The manuals don't really tell you how to do things? Well, this sounds like a big problem. I better start looking at the manuals to see what you mean, but their 500+ pages had better teach me how to do things in the game.

We are trying to be helpful jglazier, please try to stop taking everything literally, warspite is referring to, if he the poster cannot understand the manuals then go to the videos which are excellent, and the wording "had better teach me" by you is a little strong it seems to me. If you want help, we will be glad to help you in any way we can, but we are human and your attitude is important to us as to whether we are willing to help you or not. Be nice and we will be nice.

Bo

Thank you, Bo, for putting me in my place. I'm serious, thank you. I'm not being sarcastic. I came off way too harsh in a moment of frustration. I have just seen way too many poorly written manuals that don't tell you anything about how to play their game, when I saw that comment it got me worried, like here we go again.

I have posted a lot of comments in this forum the past couple days, and I think I have always been kind. I don't like rude people, so I don't want to be one myself.

I certainly do want all your help as I learn this amazing game, so I will be more careful with my wording in the future.

Thank you!

I understand frustration about this game believe me, and I truly understand yours, I am not here to put you in your place I am here to help you and you do not have to say please. When I started over a year ago beta testing I was lost, but in a very short time of playing and replaying and trying different things it stated to dawn on me hey I can play this game. AND NEVER READ A RULE. But time was on my side because I knew the game was a ways off towards completion and you and others want to play yesterday [:(]

It was very different for me though I was testing and it did not cost me anything but my time and being retired it gave me something to do. And after awhile I began to understand the quality of this game that the boardgamers were telling me about. And every rule complex or easy began to sink into me and the game took on new life for me.

I began to think I was Erwin Rommel til a couple of bad die rolls brought me down to earth with a thud [:@] The nicest thing about solo play is if things dont go well turn the stinking computer off [&o]

Did you get your copy of Annual 98 yet, because once you get the game down you will be able to kick butt either in netplay or against the future AI or against yourself [&:] I hope. Go to the page that says Annual 98, you will see my e-mail adress there, Pm me and I will send you a copy.

Relax the game will come to you hopefully before California falls into the Pacific[:D]

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: HR2

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: HR2

I have a question- Is it totally necessary to read the manual to play the game?

I just don't have the patient to read- anything (I might have finished one book in my 67 year life:) I did read some manuals back in the day with board games like SL,3R etc. (and the ensuing arguments:)

I've played GGWitE, SC global, etc with no rule reading and do very well due to my vast experience. Or at the least would skimming some important rules be enough?

I was trying to figure out if it's a total computer game minus the AI that would enforce the rules. I read above yes but bought the game it earlier today after hemming and hollering to find out myself:)

Of course I was going to buy it loving strategic games but will anxiously await the AI addon

Not totally necessary. But partially necessary part of the time.[:)] It depends on what you can pick up from the other sources of information, e.g., tutorials of different flavors.

Probably a better solution to your preference to not reading all the manuals, lies in the fact that each of the forms and phases/subphases of the game have Help buttons, which display selected pages from the Players Manuals as context sensitive help. So if you come to a point where you have a question, a Help button will bring up pretty much the same information as the Players Manual has on the subject in question. That's more of a "read up on it when you need to" solution.

Thanks for the feedback. I was kind of hoping that would be the response- a little reading here and there:)
I'm doing the set up for Guadalcanal now and haven't read anything yet:) Except not sure where to put the Japanese. All those carriers I wouldn't imagine all being at Truk for the campaign but some in Japan in case of US attack:)

Hi HR2

Gudalcanal was my baliwick in testing and if I can help you I will be glad to. Remember Truk is more of a fleet anchorage not a naval base.[In real life] I would for this scenario place most of my carriers in Rabaul [you can go into a higher sea box in thje Coral sea] and the first chance you get send your Japanese SNLF units into Guadalcanal and capture the port and Henderson field. Practice invasions over and over until you understand the ingenuity of this game. If you have a moment go back to I think page 6 or 7 and see my AAR on the battle of the Coral sea.

Bo

[FroBodine]

PM and e-mail sent to you Bo. I really appreciate your willingness to spread the wealth and help us newbies learn this amazing game.

-=Jeff

[Missouri_Rebel]

I've tested several games through the years and have bookcases full of games I'd buy just to decipher the rules and never play. I'm not sure what's wrong with me, but if I can sit down to a good rule system and go through all the legalese I get the satisfaction of reading the works of Faulkner, Dickinson, or Hemingway. IMHO, The manuals for MWiF are some of the best I have come across. Sure there are some errors and a few things left out, but overall they are fantastic.

For example, pages 19 through 74 of Player Manual 1 deal with important decisions. The sole purpose of this section is to help new players avoid making common mistakes, especially in the early turns, which can easily result in a game being irretrievably lost. These pages contain outlines of many of the rules, strategies, tips, hints, country specific points of interests etc. That's 55 pages of insight from the developer and many other people down the years. It really is a top notch read and I encourage everyone to check this section out.

It was the best of rules, it was the worst of rules, it was the rules of wisdom...

Did I just put you up there with Dickinson? Maybe a little bit of a stretch.

mo reb

[HR2]

Hi HR2

Gudalcanal was my baliwick in testing and if I can help you I will be glad to. Remember Truk is more of a fleet anchorage not a naval base.[In real life] I would for this scenario place most of my carriers in Rabaul [you can go into a higher sea box in thje Coral sea] and the first chance you get send your Japanese SNLF units into Guadalcanal and capture the port and Henderson field. Practice invasions over and over until you understand the ingenuity of this game. If you have a moment go back to I think page 6 or 7 and see my AAR on the battle of the Coral sea.

Bo
[/quote]

Thanks very much. My knowledge on the Pacific (tho I like it) is far less than the rest of the world:)
I wasn't sure Rabaul was in bomber range of US. The Japanese have what 10+ CV's and I thought only a few operated in the Coral Sea region.

So Truk being more a fleet anchorage mean it's more a staging area? I will look at your AAR, thx.

[Ingtar]

Where can I find the rules that allow/disallow British forces landing in France (as a B.E.F.)?

[bo]

ORIGINAL: HR2




Hi HR2

Gudalcanal was my baliwick in testing and if I can help you I will be glad to. Remember Truk is more of a fleet anchorage not a naval base.[In real life] I would for this scenario place most of my carriers in Rabaul [you can go into a higher sea box in thje Coral sea] and the first chance you get send your Japanese SNLF units into Guadalcanal and capture the port and Henderson field. Practice invasions over and over until you understand the ingenuity of this game. If you have a moment go back to I think page 6 or 7 and see my AAR on the battle of the Coral sea.

Bo

Thanks very much. My knowledge on the Pacific (tho I like it) is far less than the rest of the world:)
I wasn't sure Rabaul was in bomber range of US. The Japanese have what 10+ CV's and I thought only a few operated in the Coral Sea region.

So Truk being more a fleet anchorage mean it's more a staging area? I will look at your AAR, thx.
[/quote]


I apologize HR I stated that incorrectly I meant in WW2 it was a fleet anchorage, like saftey from violent tsunami's, Rabaul was more of a regular Japanese naval base, In this game Truk seems to be a regular major port for the Japanese I am not sure what kind of fleet repair they could do there probably not any wheres near what Yokohama could do for the fleet.

Sometimes I have to seperate in my mind real war from MWIF war.

This game is like a game of chess the one who gets there the fastest with the mostest has an advantage.
I would try to keep the carriers together. Are you playing fast start or did you start a new game with more optional rules than in fast start. If you have any questions please let us know. We are here to help.
If you need help with setting up a new game let me know and also we can suggest what optional rules would be good to add on to the fast start rules.

Bo

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Ingtar

Where can I find the rules that allow/disallow British forces landing in France (as a B.E.F.)?

Rules as Coded.

These are known in WIF as Foreign Troop Commitment Limits (FTC). There are two flavors: units entering a country and units leaving a country.

Entering is restricted primarily when moving units into a major power's home country, for example, Commonwealth into Metropolitan France. These wouldn't apply to moving Commonwealth units into, say, Algeria.

Leaving is a restriction placed on minor country units. They didn't like to see all their forces leave home, so some of them need to stay within their home country's borders.

[Ingtar]

My handicap is not reading the rules again and working on the RAC (Rules as Clouded by 10+ years with nowhere to set up the game).

Thank you again.