Rules Experts Needed. Shattered Units Destroyed Because of No Retreat.

[rkr1958]

The Situation.

1. Vichy is hostile to the US & CW.
2. As such, both German and Italian units have moved into metropolitan Vichy without it being collasped.
3. CW launches a land combat against a flipped Italian HQ-A and MTN corps.
4. Italy elects to fight on the blitz CRT (using 2D10).
5. A modified 21 is rolled and the CW player elects to shatter the two defenders.
6. However; MWiF destroys both shattered Italian units because it says no valid retreat path exist.
7. Is this correct? I don't see how it can be?

[rkr1958]

game file (4.3.0 (Debug),10,0) at the land combat resolution phase.

[BrianJH]

It is interesting to note that Italy doesn't meet FTC requirements in Vichy France!! (Remember that Vichy co-operates with no-one). This of course shouldn't matter as the Italian units were in Vichy at the start of the step, so they should be allowed continued free movement there.

Just wondering if MWIF is accessing FTC requirements correctly in this case?

Brian.

[Joseignacio]

IMO bug. Although it's true that they die if they have no retreat path, too, if they are shattered, ...

... they do have a retreat path, not only through the empty hex but also over the other IT corps or the Vichy Mot

[eouellet]

The rule is:
If the result includes an ‘S’ (shatter) or a ‘B’ (breakthrough), put each surviving defending land unit on the production circle if it could have retreated. These units will arrive as reinforcements next turn. Destroy
any units that could not have retreated.

The other rule is:
If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits.

I assume Germany installed Vichy, not Italy in your game.

Based on the image I am not sure about the hexes ownership, but the Italians cannot retreat through the Vichy French units as they cannot cooperate. So, the issue is the top right hex. If it is allied controled, then the system is correct for sure. If it is Vichy controlled, it depends if you have other Italian HQs in Vichy. I can see a 2 re-reorg, but you have already 4 Italian units in Vichy.

As well, by shattering Graziani, you just lowered the Italian Foreign Troop Commitment by 2.

So, it seems correct to me.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: eouellet

The rule is:
If the result includes an ‘S’ (shatter) or a ‘B’ (breakthrough), put each surviving defending land unit on the production circle if it could have retreated. These units will arrive as reinforcements next turn. Destroy
any units that could not have retreated.

The other rule is:
If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits.

I assume Germany installed Vichy, not Italy in your game.

Based on the image I am not sure about the hexes ownership, but the Italians cannot retreat through the Vichy French units as they cannot cooperate. So, the issue is the top right hex. If it is allied controled, then the system is correct for sure. If it is Vichy controlled, it depends if you have other Italian HQs in Vichy. I can see a 2 re-reorg, but you have already 4 Italian units in Vichy.

As well, by shattering Graziani, you just lowered the Italian Foreign Troop Commitment by 2.

So, it seems correct to me.

No, it isn't. If a unit starts the step in a country where FTC apply it can't be destroyed due to FTC rules.

[rkr1958]

1. Now this is embarrassing, FTC didn't occur to any of us and, apparently, it didn't occur to MWiF either!

2. Germany has von Leeb (2 reorg pt) in Vichy and 4 other non-HQ units. Under relations, MWiF states that German and Vichy don't cooperate and that FTC is applicable. Is this right since Germany installed Vichy?

3. If so, MWiF allowed Germany to exceed those FTC limits without complaint or stopping them. von Bock was the first German unit railed into Vichy and after that the German player railed 4 more German units in with ease. If FTC for Germany was indeed in effect then Germany would/should have only been able to bring in 1 more German unit in addition to von Leeb.

4. Italy at the point just before land combat resolution has 2 HQ units (4 reorg pts total) and 6 additional units. Again, if MWiF was enforcing FTC limits then Italy should have only been able to bring in 2 more units in addition to the 2 HQ units.

5. So it doesn't appear that MWiF is handling these FTC correct; expect, maybe at the point of land combat retreat?

6. The game file attached in the 2nd post of this thread might be a good one for Steve and you rule gurus to sort out with respect to a hostile Vichy and FTC limits? I'm out of my depth here.

[rkr1958]

From the "Rules as Coded".

17.4.RUNNING VICHY FRANCE

ACCESS TO VICHY TERRITORY
No Axis units may enter Vichy controlled hexes while Vichy France is neutral (except to collapse her administration, see below). While Vichy France is active, only units belonging to the major power which installed Vichy France may enter Vichy controlled administration groups, and even then must satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2) to enter each administration group.
If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits.

As I read the relevant rule, since Vichy is both active and hostile, Germany who installed Vichy should be able to move units in and out without regard to FTC.

Also, in this rule I see no provision for allowing Italy to enter Vichy under any condition. This may explain why the 2 Italian units were destroyed because they could have only retreated through Vichy controlled hexes. However; if I'm understand the rules correctly, they shouldn't have been allowed to be there in the first place. Not sure if I can but I'll see if I can find a game turn just prior to any axis units moving into a hostile Vichy.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

From the "Rules as Coded".

17.4.RUNNING VICHY FRANCE

ACCESS TO VICHY TERRITORY
No Axis units may enter Vichy controlled hexes while Vichy France is neutral (except to collapse her administration, see below). While Vichy France is active, only units belonging to the major power which installed Vichy France may enter Vichy controlled administration groups, and even then must satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2) to enter each administration group.
If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits.

As I read the relevant rule, since Vichy is both active and hostile, Germany who installed Vichy should be able to move units in and out without regard to FTC.

Also, in this rule I see no provision for allowing Italy to enter Vichy under any condition. This may explain why the 2 Italian units were destroyed because they could have only retreated through Vichy controlled hexes. However; if I'm understand the rules correctly, they shouldn't have been allowed to be there in the first place. Not sure if I can but I'll see if I can find a game turn just prior to any axis units moving into a hostile Vichy.

Correct.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

From the "Rules as Coded".

17.4.RUNNING VICHY FRANCE

ACCESS TO VICHY TERRITORY
No Axis units may enter Vichy controlled hexes while Vichy France is neutral (except to collapse her administration, see below). While Vichy France is active, only units belonging to the major power which installed Vichy France may enter Vichy controlled administration groups, and even then must satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2) to enter each administration group.
If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits.

As I read the relevant rule, since Vichy is both active and hostile, Germany who installed Vichy should be able to move units in and out without regard to FTC.

Also, in this rule I see no provision for allowing Italy to enter Vichy under any condition. This may explain why the 2 Italian units were destroyed because they could have only retreated through Vichy controlled hexes. However; if I'm understand the rules correctly, they shouldn't have been allowed to be there in the first place. Not sure if I can but I'll see if I can find a game turn just prior to any axis units moving into a hostile Vichy.

Correct.

Thanks. But happenstance, or good fortunate, I do have a game turn during the allied ground support phase where Vichy had just become active and hostile to both the US and CW. It's from,
Some Surprise Ground Support Not Doubled? 4.3.0 (Debug). I've attached the file to this thread also.

[Orm]

One could argue that Italian units are allowed to be in Vichy if Vichy France is "active and hostile". Subject, of course, to the foreign troop commitment rules.

There are three different status levels for the Vichy government that controls access to their territory and each is listed in the rules.

Assuming that Germany installed Vichy France then this is the different special rule regarding entrance into Vichy territory.
1) If Vichy France is neutral, then no Axis units may enter (except to collapse).
2) If Vichy France is active, then only German units may enter, and then subject to foreign troop commitment rules.
3) If Vichy France is active and hostile, then German units can enter without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment
limits.

So in this case Vichy France is active and hostile so part 3 guards access to Vichy territory. Note that there is nothing mentioning that access to Vichy territory is forbidden for Italy in part 3. Only that Germany do not need to use the foreign HQ rule. Thus normal rules apply for Italy in regards to entering another major power home country which Italy does not co-operate with.

Conclusion: Italy may be in Vichy France, and retreat. Albeit HQ restrictions apply when entering Vichy French home country hexes.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: Orm

One could argue that Italian units are allowed to be in Vichy if Vichy France is "active and hostile". Subject, of course, to the foreign troop commitment rules.

There are three different status levels for the Vichy government that controls access to their territory and each is listed in the rules.

Assuming that Germany installed Vichy France then this is the different special rule regarding entrance into Vichy territory.
1) If Vichy France is neutral, then no Axis units may enter (except to collapse).
2) If Vichy France is active, then only German units may enter, and then subject to foreign troop commitment rules.
3) If Vichy France is active and hostile, then German units can enter without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment
limits.

So in this case Vichy France is active and hostile so part 3 guards access to Vichy territory. Note that there is nothing mentioning that access to Vichy territory is forbidden for Italy in part 3. Only that Germany do not need to use the foreign HQ rule. Thus normal rules apply for Italy in regards to entering another major power home country which Italy does not co-operate with.

Conclusion: Italy may be in Vichy France, and retreat. Albeit HQ restrictions apply when entering Vichy French home country hexes.

I did verify the wording from, "The Rules as Coded" against the "The Rules as Written" and they match. My understanding and approach to interpreting WiF rules as written by Harry is to take them literally and make no assumptions. So, "While Vichy France is active, only units belonging to the major power which installed Vichy France may enter Vichy controlled administration groups, ...", limits entry to Vichy to German controlled units (since Germany installed Vichy) and not Italian or Japanese.

"If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits." Again, this limits entry to Vichy by German controlled units without FTC. No where do I see any rule that would allow Italian or Japanese controlled units to enter even with FTC. To me to assume otherwise is to make assumptions about the rules that I don't see are there. Unless, and very well, if I missing something?

[eouellet]

Well, then there is:

"A major power or minor country unit that ends any step in the home country of a friendly major power it doesn’t co-operate with is destroyed unless:
 it started the step there; or
 it started the step elsewhere and the unit satisfies the foreign troop commitment limit."

So, if Vichy is at war and hostile against a power Italy is at war with, then it should make it a "friendly power", subject to FTC limitations.

It seems that the bug is MWIF did not destroyed the Italian units in excess of FTC at the end of the movement phase, but did the right thing in the combat phase. The example from the RAW is exactly about that:
"Example: Two Commonwealth land units are retreated into France by the German player (even though there was a free hex in Belgium that the German player could have retreated them to). Unfortunately for the
Commonwealth, Gort and one Commonwealth fighter are already in France. As Gort only has a reorganisation value of 2, at the end of the Retreat step the Commonwealth player must destroy 1 of the retreating land units."

The destruction of Graziani should make things worse at the end of the combat phase, as FTC is reduced to 2, and more Italian units should be destroyed, but I think the bug is there as well.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

"If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits." Again, this limits entry to Vichy by German controlled units without FTC. No where do I see any rule that would allow Italian or Japanese controlled units to enter even with FTC. To me to assume otherwise is to make assumptions about the rules that I don't see are there. Unless, and very well, if I missing something?

1) This rule for active and hostile Vichy France does not limit access in any way or form. It simply states that there is an exception to the normal rule that foreign HQ would apply for Germany.
2) The Vichy French rules states the exception to normal rules.
3) And if there is no exception the normal rule apply.
4) And the normal rule allows Italy to enter with the foreign HQ rule.

And here I would like to quote the wise words from rkr1958 "My understanding and approach to interpreting WiF rules as written by Harry is to take them literally and make no assumptions." [:)]

[Courtenay]

I agree with Ronnie and Peter.

The rule says that if Vichy is active, only German units may enter, and must satisfy FTC limits. The next sentence modifies this: if Vichy is active and hostile, all German units may enter without needing to satisfy FTC. I see nothing in this second sentence that overrides the prohibition of Italian units from entering Vichy in the first place.

So the question for me is not "Why are the Italian units destroyed?" but "Why were the Italians allowed in in the first place?" The fact that something strange happens when one starts from an illegal position does not overly concern me.

(Of course the fact that I agree with you about a controversial WiF rules question is all too often a clear sign that you are wrong. [:)])

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

I agree with Ronnie and Peter.

The rule says that if Vichy is active, only German units may enter, and must satisfy FTC limits. The next sentence modifies this: if Vichy is active and hostile, all German units may enter without needing to satisfy FTC. I see nothing in this second sentence that overrides the prohibition of Italian units from entering Vichy in the first place.

So the question for me is not "Why are the Italian units destroyed?" but "Why were the Italians allowed in in the first place?" The fact that something strange happens when one starts from an illegal position does not overly concern me.

(Of course the fact that I agree with you about a controversial WiF rules question is all too often a clear sign that you are wrong. [:)])

I might agree with you about the "next sentence" part if the next sentence was not an entirely new paragraph. Hence, in my humble opinion, the two sentences are not linked in any way.

[eouellet]

Just to beat it to death...

In the Vichy collapse rules, it state :
"If an Allied unit enters Metropolitan Vichy France before it has collapsed:
 Axis units can enter Metropolitan Vichy France without causing a collapse;"

The expression "Axis units" is clear here, so it is not the hostile status, per se, but the presence of an allied power unit in Vichy territory (which, of course, causes the hostile status) that allows Axis powers to come in Vichy Metropolitan territory. Then, the installing power is granted the exception as described in the rules, while the others follow the normal non-cooperating rule (i.e. must meet FTC).

[BrianJH]

ORIGINAL: eouellet

Just to beat it to death...

In the Vichy collapse rules, it state :
"If an Allied unit enters Metropolitan Vichy France before it has collapsed:
 Axis units can enter Metropolitan Vichy France without causing a collapse;"

The expression "Axis units" is clear here, so it is not the hostile status, per se, but the presence of an allied power unit in Vichy territory (which, of course, causes the hostile status) that allows Axis powers to come in Vichy Metropolitan territory. Then, the installing power is granted the exception as described in the rules, while the others follow the normal non-cooperating rule (i.e. must meet FTC).

Yeah that's my interpretation of the rules also.

If Vichy is Active and Hostile then,

If, Germany installed Vichy, then Germany can enter Vichy without having to satisfy FTC.

Other Axis units (eg. Italy ) can also enter Vichy, subject to FTC.


Brian.

ref: 17.4
If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units
controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can
enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign
troop commitment limits.


If an Allied unit enters Metropolitan Vichy France before it has
collapsed:
- Axis units can enter Metropolitan Vichy France without causing a
collapse; and
- Vichy units no longer test their loyalty prior to land combat
resolution (see 17.5).

[CL55AMG]

ORIGINAL: BrianJH

Yeah that's my interpretation of the rules also.

If Vichy is Active and Hostile then,

If, Germany installed Vichy, then Germany can enter Vichy without having to satisfy FTC.

Other Axis units (eg. Italy ) can also enter Vichy, subject to FTC.

Agree, there is nothing stating that the FTC rules don't apply to Vichy, just the exception.

[Courtenay]

The question is whether the rule stating that only the power that installed Vichy may enter Vichy if Vichy is active still applies if Vichy is active and hostile.

This is not clear. I had thought that it was, until Orm pointed out that that is not just a different sentence, but a different paragraph.

The rule states that if Vichy is active, only the power that installed Vichy may enter it.

The next paragraph states that if Vichy is active and hostile the installing major power may enter it and does not have to worry about FTC. It says nothing about other Axis major powers. So does this override the previous rule? I don't see why it would. Vichy is still active, just, in addition, hostile. So I would think that the previous rule would still stand, as it has not been explicitly cancelled.

As I said, I would not be surprised to find that I am wrong here. It would not be for the first time. However, that is how I see the rules read.

(We could always break down and send in a question to ADG to resolve this issue. [:)])