Potential House Rules for More Historical Play

[rkr1958]

Marine Nationale (3/3).

[brian brian]

Wot? No more giving the code word on the BBC and night-dropping the Agent to help Colonel Hogan plan the obliteration of Dusseldorf, again?

(Have always thought night PARA missions have historical precedent)

Cool to see where all the ships were, look forward to seeing how the Axis ships were set up.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: brian brian
(Have always thought night PARA missions have historical precedent)

Excellent point. Will add para missions and their fighters to strat bombing.

(revised) HHR-5. Night Mission Limitations. Only night missions allowed are strategic bombing, para drops and their associated fighter escorts and intercepts.

[craigbear]

I have been thinking of house ruling no shore bombardment, off or def, if enemy surface ships are in the sea zone. Could be wrong, but I cannot recall any instance that this was not defacto true.

[CL55AMG]

Great work on the deployments.
I've also been working on 1 September 1939 Naval deployments.
French Deployments

The French cruiser Suffren was enroute from Singapore,Malaya to Saigon,Indochina on 3 Sept 1939

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: craigbear

I have been thinking of house ruling no shore bombardment, off or def, if enemy surface ships are in the sea zone. Could be wrong, but I cannot recall any instance that this was not defacto true.

This would allow quite gamey maneuvers of sending a single SCS into a sea zone to stop shore bombardment. Stick it in the zero box, and it has a good chance of surviving.

[craigbear]

Not certain how gamey it would be... imagine a couple of German ships roaming around during Dday... at least some assets deployed for bombardment would have had to respond. That should be factored in somehow.

[paulderynck]

It is - they can provide defensive shore bombardment... if they survive long enough.

[JagWars]

There are few house rules we use when playing the board game:
1.) Subs cannot leave the Mediterranean unless Gibraltar is neutral or friendly controlled. Enemy subs did not leave the Med during WWII. If anyone has reference that refutes this, I should be very interested in learning of it. Enemy subs entered the Med by cutting their engines and allowing the current to pull them through.However, this was not entirely successful either as many were detected during the attempt.
2.) Naval searches; the most aggravating part of WiF for me is that your chances of finding your opponent during a sea search is the same whether you have one ship or the entire Allied/Axis navy in the sea area. All surface ships are organized into Task FOrces; each task force searches separately for a specific enemy task force.
3.) Escorts have to be assigned to the bombing mission, i.e., enemy interceptors cannot be intercepted. If you fail to assign bomber escort and your opponent intercepts your mission, then you are at the mercy of the die rolls. The active player can intercept defensive ground support and any accompanying escorts.
4.) Canadian, Australian, and India production is used to produce units for their respective countries. If you want the production point to go to the UK, it is treated like lend-lease and must be shipped via the convoy system. Similarly, if the UK wants to produce units for these countries, the production point is is treated like lend lease and must be shipped via the convoy system.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: JagWars

There are few house rules we use when playing the board game:
1.) Subs cannot leave the Mediterranean unless Gibraltar is neutral or friendly controlled. Enemy subs did not leave the Med during WWII. If anyone has reference that refutes this, I should be very interested in learning of it. Enemy subs entered the Med by cutting their engines and allowing the current to pull them through.However, this was not entirely successful either as many were detected during the attempt.

Since a lot of Italian submarines left the Mediterranean for the Atlantic without any losses, I suggest that the German U-boats could have left as well. At least 28 Italian submarines were deployed into the Atlantic theatre after Italy had entered WWII.



Picture from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BETASOM

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: JagWars

There are few house rules we use when playing the board game:
1.) Subs cannot leave the Mediterranean unless Gibraltar is neutral or friendly controlled. Enemy subs did not leave the Med during WWII. If anyone has reference that refutes this, I should be very interested in learning of it. Enemy subs entered the Med by cutting their engines and allowing the current to pull them through.However, this was not entirely successful either as many were detected during the attempt.

Since a lot of Italian submarines left the Mediterranean for the Atlantic without any losses, I suggest that the German U-boats could have left as well. At least 28 Italian submarines were deployed into the Atlantic theatre after Italy had entered WWII.



Picture from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BETASOM

True. The actual number of Italian SUB's operating in the Atlantic was a lot higher...

So: that house rule is not historical at all.

[ajds]

Your Scandinavian house rule seems like an awful lot of work to stop an initial ploy (deployment to take Murmansk initially) that should be self-correcting. The ploy should require the Finnish HQ-I up there or sea supply - sea supply you can stop with one Commonwealth cruiser. Or stack one setup Soviet corps in Murmansk (which is standard) and toss a reserve in there if threatened - are you telling me the Finns can take an arctic forest city with two corps in it? Even if they try, you should then be walking into Helsinki, which renders the ploy moot. Or am I missing something?

[Courtenay]

One change I would like is the alignment of Siam: Instead of being able to align Siam only before Japan is at war with the west, Japan should be able to align it only after Japan is at war with the CW. After all, Thailand only declared war on 25 January, 1942.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: ajds

Your Scandinavian house rule seems like an awful lot of work to stop an initial ploy (deployment to take Murmansk initially) that should be self-correcting. The ploy should require the Finnish HQ-I up there or sea supply - sea supply you can stop with one Commonwealth cruiser. Or stack one setup Soviet corps in Murmansk (which is standard) and toss a reserve in there if threatened - are you telling me the Finns can take an arctic forest city with two corps in it? Even if they try, you should then be walking into Helsinki, which renders the ploy moot. Or am I missing something?

Too complicated I agree. I also agree with all you wrote. The house rule isn't intended to counter an all out push by the Finns to captured Murmansk, which as you so eloquently have pointed out isn't necessary anyway. What I was trying to counter is that the Finns with 1 ski div can easily cut the rail line leading from Murmansk to Soviet proper. If fact, with a couple of divisions the axis can cut the rail line in such a way that it would require a major effort and a Soviet HQ just to uncut it.

Maybe a better and certainly simpler house rule is that the axis are "forbidden" to cut this rail line until either they've capture Murmansk or Vologda?

[Orm]

USSR had major forces against Finland during the war. At the outbreak of the continuation war the Soviet Northern District had around 450,000 men against Finland. Shouldn't there be a major effort from the Soviet side to protect the railway? And it is a railway that doesn't seem to need protection for US aid since they can just use the historical Soviet Far East, and Persian Gulf, routes with your rule HHR-3.

And why is it that Leningrad has no play in the HHR-4? As Finland used Leningrad as an excuse to not advance further into USSR.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

ORIGINAL: brian brian
(Have always thought night PARA missions have historical precedent)

Excellent point. Will add para missions and their fighters to strat bombing.

(revised) HHR-5. Night Mission Limitations. Only night missions allowed are strategic bombing, para drops and their associated fighter escorts and intercepts.

Night PARA missions do have a historical precedent. And the lesson learned from it was 'do not drop paras at night'. Therefore I suggest some sort of penalty if PARA missions are done at night. Maybe removing the +1 attacking bonus for the PARA if it is dropped at night would work?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: JagWars

1.) Subs cannot leave the Mediterranean unless Gibraltar is neutral or friendly controlled. Enemy subs did not leave the Med during WWII. If anyone has reference that refutes this, I should be very interested in learning of it. Enemy subs entered the Med by cutting their engines and allowing the current to pull them through. However, this was not entirely successful either as many were detected during the attempt.

warspite1

This is not true. The Italians sent many subs to the North Atlantic.

The reason German subs didn't return to the Atlantic was not was because of the risk, but was political and the reason Donitz never wanted his precious u-boats sent to the Mediterranean in the first place. He knew once a sub was ordered to the Med he would not get it back. And he was right.

The problem is that because of the sub counter sizes it is difficult to reflect losses. The option is binary. The counter survives or gets sunk - both are unsatisfactory. A compromise could be that any counter would have to be holed up in port for x number of turns. Its not ideal but at least gives some pain for those attempting to pass the Straits.

[JagWars]

ORIGINAL: JagWars

There are few house rules we use when playing the board game:
1.) Subs cannot leave the Mediterranean unless Gibraltar is neutral or friendly controlled. Enemy subs did not leave the Med during WWII. If anyone has reference that refutes this, I should be very interested in learning of it. Enemy subs entered the Med by cutting their engines and allowing the current to pull them through.However, this was not entirely successful either as many were detected during the attempt.

Since a lot of Italian submarines left the Mediterranean for the Atlantic without any losses, I suggest that the German U-boats could have left as well. At least 28 Italian submarines were deployed into the Atlantic theatre after Italy had entered WWII.



Picture from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BETASOM

Your reference is for Italian Subs that left the Mediterranean in June 1940 before Italy declared war upon the UK.
https://comandosupremo.com/betasom-ital ... arine-base
So perhaps I should have been more specific; only subs from neutral countries are permitted to leave the Mediterranean unless they control Gibraltar or the Suez canal.

76 German subs attempted to sailed from the Atlantic into the Mediterranean: only 62 made it safely through, none escaped back into the Atlantic.

Again, if you can find a reference that enemy subs left the Med during WWII, I should be quite interested.

[John B.]

It appears that the Leonardo Di Vinci deployed to Bordeaux in October 1940 and not only operated in the Atlantic, but in the Indian Ocean as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_s ... nci_(1939). Perhaps the outright ban should only apply in later years (1942 onwards) or there should be a die roll for success?

[JagWars]

It appears that the Leonardo Di Vinci deployed to Bordeaux in October 1940 and not only operated in the Atlantic, but in the Indian Ocean as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_s ... nci_(1939). Perhaps the outright ban should only apply in later years (1942 onwards) or there should be a die roll for success?

German U-26 entered and left the Med in 1939. I cannot recall if that was before or after the DOW against Poland. the Leonardo Di Vinci left Italy on 18 June (Italy declared war on 10 June) and sailed into the Atlantic. That is the last enemy sub that managed to leave the Med that I have been able to identify. I have a reference somewhere that states that no enemy subs left the Mediterranean after June 1940. Unfortunately, all of my books are in storage and sadly I do not remember which book it was. I have over 100 books on WWII so even when I have access to my books again, finding the reference could be quite tiresome. So with that in mind I shall call uncle and acquiesce to the statement of others.

However, I should much appreciate the sharing of any reference that anyone might be able provide concerning other enemy subs that managed to escape the Med after June 1940.