Morocco, Algeria and Tunsia

[Majorball68]

It is standard practice for the French to move the infantry corps that's starts in Algeria to France. This seams to make it pretty easy for the Italians to capture these territories should they DOW early. From Algeria it seems pretty easy to get Gibraltar in range of Naval bombers and make it difficult for the CW player to base naval units there. What are your thoughts on defending these Africa colonies with the French? Is it better to keep the starting Corps there to hold up the Italians?

Also from Morocca Axis naval bombers and Subs can make it hard to defend convoys for the Allies.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

"Standard" Play is that you take the inf corps out of Syria first, since you can do that on the impulse when you're sure the Italians won't try to kill anything in the Med.

You only take the infantry in Algeria or Morocco out afterwards, usually after railing him to Casablanca so you can pick him up without sticking your TRS in the med. Now, if you're lucky, you have a TERR sitting in say, Algeria or Tunisia, but if you don't? Yeah, there's a good chance the Italians will overrun North Africa. Clining that much tighter to France proper is worth it, IMO. If you're worried about naval bombers hitting Gibraltar, keep a fighter there.


And there's no naval base in Algeria worth anything, and no major ports in Morocco. If the Italians base subs there, I'm going to pay them a visit with my carriers.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

"Standard" Play is that you take the inf corps out of Syria first, since you can do that on the impulse when you're sure the Italians won't try to kill anything in the Med.

You only take the infantry in Algeria or Morocco out afterwards, usually after railing him to Casablanca so you can pick him up without sticking your TRS in the med. Now, if you're lucky, you have a TERR sitting in say, Algeria or Tunisia, but if you don't? Yeah, there's a good chance the Italians will overrun North Africa. Clining that much tighter to France proper is worth it, IMO. If you're worried about naval bombers hitting Gibraltar, keep a fighter there.


And there's no naval base in Algeria worth anything, and no major ports in Morocco. If the Italians base subs there, I'm going to pay them a visit with my carriers.

Agreed. However, as the CW I would try to put a unit in Algiers to delay this, if the French haven't got a TERR around. Just to make life for the Italians a little bit more difficult and to keep the pressure of Egypt. Never give territory to the Axis without something of a fight. It takes time to destroy a lousy CW TERR, MIL or GAR acting as peacekeepers which is kept in supply by a neutral CW fleet in the Med (if Italy didn't DoW the CW, it can't intervene regarding supply on coastal hexes for CW units in French North Africa).

[Klydon]

I have read both ways on the infantry in Syria. Some say leave it so the Italians can't invade through the back door. I would say if you get two territorials there for sure, it is safe to pull the regular infantry for duty in France.

North Africa is a bit tougher. I had been pulling the infantry out of there (especially since the last two games the 6-4 infantry seems to wind up there) and the Italians walk over the area with a single 1-4 territorial with no real issues. I think I may start leaving the unit there. I don't really care that much about Tunis, but potentially getting the resource out of Algeria is another matter and a unit here also has excellent defensive terrain that will make the Italians either bring the house to get rid of it, or go do something else.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

Agree with you, if you have a body to spare, but that's often hard.

And it can't be a TERR, they count as a minor country's unit so you have Foreign troop commitment you have to satisfy. If I send anyone from the CW, that 4-1 reserve Garr seems to get the job most often.

[Majorball68]

And there's no naval base in Algeria worth anything, and no major ports in Morocco. If the Italians base subs there, I'm going to pay them a visit with my carriers.

I am finding that Subs don't have to be committed to battles even for Port attacks. The defending players does not have to commit them to combat. Are there times when they have to commit them to combat in a port attack? Seems to me that for any attack on a sub Port attacks would be one they could not be committed to battle.

[brian brian]

The defense of Gibraltar begins in Algeria. The Axis may not need Oran as a naval base, but it is very valuable to them as an air base. If the Allies don't defend Algeria, the Axis could soon be pushing into Morocco, from where they can get airbases to cut supply to Gibraltar.

I would generally not withdraw the French INF from Algeria. Maybe replace the 5-3 INF or 6-4 INF with whichever started in Syria. If the Axis demonstrate a degree of seriousness in Algeria, such as landing an HQ, the French could consider transferring their MTN corps to Algiers.

The INF in Syria isn't needed there, the Royal Navy can cover that area quite well.

An early Axis attack on Egypt is less likely to work than later, and really should only be attempted if the Axis is going to be serious about the Med front over the long term. The Royal Navy can do much better in the East Med than the West Med. In the West Med, Axis air can operate straight from supplied bases. It has less opportunity to do that in the East Med, particularly early, and before they might have Greece.

The French can help contest the West Med, but they only have one CV (which they should keep on the map for quite a while if Germany seems to be interested in oceanic affairs. Interning the Bearn is very overrated.)

Just giving Algeria to the Axis is not very smart play. Of course, many Allies would rather build navies than fight the Axis on the ground everywhere they can, whenever they can. Then by the time their impressive new fleet is ready to fight, the Axis have all the good bases….

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Majorball68

And there's no naval base in Algeria worth anything, and no major ports in Morocco. If the Italians base subs there, I'm going to pay them a visit with my carriers.

I am finding that Subs don't have to be committed to battles even for Port attacks. The defending players does not have to commit them to combat. Are there times when they have to commit them to combat in a port attack? Seems to me that for any attack on a sub Port attacks would be one they could not be committed to battle.

If it is a major port, the defender chooses whether to include them or not. In a minor port, subs must be included.

[Majorball68]

Thanks Paulderynck, I didnt know that probably never tried to bomb them in a minor port to find out!

[IKerensky]

For the italians to walk their territorial it need supply, for it to have supply they need to put ships in the West méditerranean see, transport or convoy.

As France I really like when Italy give me a chance to sink its convoy or trade my ships for them early. It also burn italian oil.

[Majorball68]

ORIGINAL: KERENSKY

For the italians to walk their territorial it need supply, for it to have supply they need to put ships in the West méditerranean see, transport or convoy.

As France I really like when Italy give me a chance to sink its convoy or trade my ships for them early. It also burn italian oil.

Yes if your using the Convoy or transport rule this could be a pain. If the Italians and Germans build some naval bombers it can be equally painful for the Allies. I tend to be very careful with the Italian navy and would not use them is such a role where they could be slowly destroyed. Much prefer to use the Italian Navy in combination with lots of Naval bombers and fighter cover.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

Yes if your using the Convoy or transport rule this could be a pain. If the Italians and Germans build some naval bombers it can be equally painful for the Allies. I tend to be very careful with the Italian navy and would not use them is such a role where they could be slowly destroyed. Much prefer to use the Italian Navy in combination with lots of Naval bombers and fighter cover.

Well, on the first few turns of the game, there isn't a whole lot of naval air that can be committed to the Med. However, Italy's first priority is usually to build a zillion navs to take over the airspace. Given the small number of seaboxes and the usual good weather, air power dominates, sea power is secondary.


So to me, I don't care much if the Italian fleet goes to the bottom. By S/O 1940, they'll barely be used anyway and it'll be the planes running the show. So be aggressive with them, don't be afraid to take some losses if it gets you something.

[IKerensky]

As France I would trade my ships for italian ones rather than risk them turning Axis.

And every CP you sunk really put the hurt on Italy limited supply and production.

I always lla y with limited supply oversea in order to get a better med feeling.

[Majorball68]

ORIGINAL: KERENSKY

As France I would trade my ships for italian ones rather than risk them turning Axis.

And every CP you sunk really put the hurt on Italy limited supply and production.

I always lla y with limited supply oversea in order to get a better med feeling.

Have not found limited supply overseas that great. It is a little easier to keep combat vessels in a sea zone then transports or convoys. Suppose I cant be bothered with the hassle in solitaire play. Can have a huge impact on the Italian supply in Africa with limited supply given that Italy doesnt usually get a lot of Production points to waste on convoys.
As far as the French taking a piece of the Italian fleet, this is something I try an avoid at all costs while France is still active.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

Limited Overseas supply is HUGE. The biggest thing is that without it, you can stay in supply by having a stack of strong ships in a high box. To knock them out, you usually need an eequal or greater force, also in a high box. Your same forces both guard your own supply lines, and attack the enemy.


But if you're playing LOS, then you need either a TRS or a convoy. Your TRS are usually busy with other things, and since reorg is after return to base anyway.... you often can't have them stick around for a while in anything less than an emergency. Convoys can't leave the 0 box.

So say you're looking at a situation where both the Axis and the Allies are trying to operate in the Western Med, and kill each other on the water. This forces both of them to split their forces, putting guys in a high box to hit the other side, but also something protecting the 0 box to safeguard the convoys. Otherwise, you're risking the roll where he finds and you don't on search, and blows your CP out of the water unprotected.

IMO, if you're playing with the SiF convoys, you should be playing LOS.


EDIT: Re, French v Italian naval fights. Again, I just don't see the Italian fleet as being hugely that valuable. The Med is usually controlled by air power, not sea power. Those cruisers aren't even always worth the oil it takes to re-org them, and if they sink, they sink. As long as I have my NAVs and fighters that can protect them, I'm happy.

[Majorball68]

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Limited Overseas supply is HUGE. The biggest thing is that without it, you can stay in supply by having a stack of strong ships in a high box. To knock them out, you usually need an eequal or greater force, also in a high box. Your same forces both guard your own supply lines, and attack the enemy.


But if you're playing LOS, then you need either a TRS or a convoy. Your TRS are usually busy with other things, and since reorg is after return to base anyway.... you often can't have them stick around for a while in anything less than an emergency. Convoys can't leave the 0 box.

So say you're looking at a situation where both the Axis and the Allies are trying to operate in the Western Med, and kill each other on the water. This forces both of them to split their forces, putting guys in a high box to hit the other side, but also something protecting the 0 box to safeguard the convoys. Otherwise, you're risking the roll where he finds and you don't on search, and blows your CP out of the water unprotected.

IMO, if you're playing with the SiF convoys, you should be playing LOS.

It appears to me that it hurts the Axis much more than the Allies. It is not something I want to manage in solitaire at this stage.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

hmm, no, I'd say the reverse, on the whole of it. Generally, while the Allies enjoy considerable advantage in number of naval vessels, they're also more stretched. LOS's biggest effect is how you need almost twice the force to be fully active in a sea zone, both protecting your convoys and attacking those of the enemy.

And the Allies, CW especially, need to be vigilant in a lot more sea zones than the Axis do, who generally have to protect a few key sea zones each (Baltic for the Germans, the 3 Med zones for the Italians, and that stretch from the Sea of Japan to the South China sea out east to Kwajalein for the Japanese. The rest of the world, they can pretty much solely enjoy being on the attack.


The Allies, on the other hand, have a far more marked interest in search and destroy, so they need to be active all over the Atlantic and Pacific. LOS dissipates their efforts a lot more than it does the Axis.

[IKerensky]

I will always play with LOS because he kept the méditerranean sane. Both side have to escort convoy through it and it force the CW to actually do some effort to protect Malta. It is among my mandatory rules, like AMPH and TRS.

Italian navy is a trouble and keep a trouble both offensively and defensively. Dont bet too much on Italian planes, all it take is a CL in 4 square and a Hurricane above the convoy and they fall in drove.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

The Italians have fighters as well, you know. Even in the two box, (which quite a few of their FTR can reach) gives a nav a 30% chance of finding, 40 if your opponent has a CP too. At that point, their odds of finding are just as good as that CL in the 4th square, and they're a lot more offensively powerful and less vulnerable.


And the fighter in the 0 is good for naked NAVs, but if there's an escort? Going to have at least 3 surprise points just from the effective difference in boxes, plus whatever the difference in rolls, (and if I'm able to target the convoys, that likely means I rolled well and you didn't). Flood the enemy fighter with minuses to his power, and you might blow him out of the sky.

Now, I agree, they're not so great for defense in 0, at least if you solely rely on planes, but for offense? In the Med? It's very rare that attacking with ships will yield better results than attacking with NAVs, and while it does happen, I think it's rare enough to not be hugely worth worrying about the long-term survival of the fleet.

[IKerensky]

The CL in the 4 box is there for the surprise point so the chance are the italian wont have the 3 points against the fighter covering the CP.