Persian oil production expenditure. Bug or not?

[Joseignacio]

Hello.

When I see the Persian oil in the map, one of them has a port but no rail. Another has a rail that takes it to Europe. Another has nothing.

So we could say only two resources can be gotten out of Persia till there is road, or rail in the third. And none can be brought to Europe by rail cause the northern one goes through the USSR and the southern through France controlled Syria. However they could be used if we can trace a "basic supply line".

Also, you have minor ports in Bandaar Shapur and Busher to save it (at least, there is a 3rd one but not connected by rail) apart from the capital.

So it would mean when the USSR player declared war on Persia, and cut the railroad up there, there should still be saved the oil for Axis in Bandar Sahapur and Bushehr.

The game offers to save only 1 point and says I cannot save more (there are two ports), which IMO is not correct but I am no oil expert.

In the reorganize phase, I can use oil from Persia only for ships at sea, and then the game leaves 1 oil saved at Bandaar Shapur, and no oil saved in Bushehr.

I wonder if all this is correct, if not, I will report a bug.

[Joseignacio]

At haven

[Joseignacio]

Oil for reorg air/land units.

[Joseignacio]

Savegame

[Orm]

1) No supply line needs to be traced to reorganize ships at sea so the Persian oil could be used to reorganize all ships at sea.
2) The hex with oil at the coast without any port is considered a hex with a port for oil purposes.
3) All the Persian, (or German) oil should be allowed to be saved if the oil can be traced to a hex where it is allowed to be saved. Although it might be questionable if you actually want to save the oil if Persia becomes conquered by USSR since the oil then becomes Soviet.
4) Depending on what rules are used it is usually very difficult to use the Persian oil to reorg German units. CPs needed at sea is one obstacle if that option is in play. And there must be a string of Axis controlled land hexes all the way to use a land route. No neutral, no Allied, controlled hex may be drawn into for reorganization purposes.


xxxx

So the saving oil issue sounds like a bug. I suspect that the rest is correct.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Orm

1) No supply line needs to be traced to reorganize ships at sea so the Persian oil could be used to reorganize all ships at sea.
2) The hex with oil at the coast without any port is considered a hex with a port for oil purposes.
3) All the Persian, (or German) oil should be allowed to be saved if the oil can be traced to a hex where it is allowed to be saved. Although it might be questionable if you actually want to save the oil if Persia becomes conquered by USSR since the oil then becomes Soviet.
4) Depending on what rules are used it is usually very difficult to use the Persian oil to reorg German units. CPs needed at sea is one obstacle if that option is in play. And there must be a string of Axis controlled land hexes all the way to use a land route. No neutral, no Allied, controlled hex may be drawn into for reorganization purposes.


xxxx

So the saving oil issue sounds like a bug. I suspect that the rest is correct.

Saving the oil point generated by the 1 Persian oil resource that is on a rail line is possible. It can be saved in the Persian controlled Persian Gulf port.

The other two oil points generated by the other 2 Persian oil resources can be used to reorganize units. They can also be saved (somewhere) if there is a convoy (or two to save both) in the Persian Gulf.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Saving the oil point generated by the 1 Persian oil resource that is on a rail line is possible. It can be saved in the Persian controlled Persian Gulf port.

The other two oil points generated by the other 2 Persian oil resources can be used to reorganize units. They can also be saved (somewhere) if there is a convoy (or two to save both) in the Persian Gulf.

This is partly correct. The oil resource that is on a minor port, but not on rail, should be able to be saved in the hex it is in since oil can be saved in hexes with ports. So Germany should be able to save two of the oils but not the third.

[Joseignacio]

True bro. And if both should be able to be used for reorganizing units, then is there a reason why my units at sea can be reorg with them (all and any) and no one who is not at sea? I guess if the line to the oil reaches the Western or Eastern Med, Bay of Biscay and Feroes it should be able to reach the adjacent ports shouldn't it?

Plus some of this areas were not occupied by Allies' ships along with mine, so they couldn't hinder the pass anyway.

I mean, maybe they shouldn't have arrived at all to any of my units but, if they did, for example around Africa, how can they arrive to my Navs in western and Eastern Med and not to Italy?

I was asking because I never used oil rules before and maybe there is a rule that "all the units at sea can access the oil regardless of enemy presence on the way " or something... and maybe there was a hinder to a line reachig Europe affecting my land and air units and ships in port.

[Centuur]

RAW:

Units at sea are always in supply.

And:

You do not have to transport the oil anywhere. But you must be able
to trace a path from the unit to the oil resource. This path is exactly
like a basic supply path (including via overseas) (see 2.4.2) except
that it can be of any length.

And out of the FAQ:

Assuming Limited Overseas Supply is in force :
Q1 : Can units at sea always turn face-up
and trace to whatever oil they like?
Q2 : How do units at sea trace to an oil?
Q3 : Is their "sea portion" considered used
up so they must trace a basic path?
A: Units at sea are always in supply so they
do not have to trace to oil, and can access
any oil the country might have anywhere.
Date 09/04/2007

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

RAW:

Units at sea are always in supply.

And:

You do not have to transport the oil anywhere. But you must be able
to trace a path from the unit to the oil resource. This path is exactly
like a basic supply path (including via overseas) (see 2.4.2) except
that it can be of any length.

And out of the FAQ:

Assuming Limited Overseas Supply is in force :
Q1 : Can units at sea always turn face-up
and trace to whatever oil they like?
Q2 : How do units at sea trace to an oil?
Q3 : Is their "sea portion" considered used
up so they must trace a basic path?
A: Units at sea are always in supply so they
do not have to trace to oil, and can access
any oil the country might have anywhere.
Date 09/04/2007

I knew both the first and the second quote.

The third is more explanatory of this case, it is clear then that the game considers that the oil cannot trace a basic supply path overseas to Europe. I don't think this is the case, but I will check.

As for the checking of the basic supply path of any length... it cannot cross neutral countries, can it? And, can it cross sea areas with SCSs from both sides?

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

ORIGINAL: Centuur

RAW:

Units at sea are always in supply.

And:

You do not have to transport the oil anywhere. But you must be able
to trace a path from the unit to the oil resource. This path is exactly
like a basic supply path (including via overseas) (see 2.4.2) except
that it can be of any length.

And out of the FAQ:

Assuming Limited Overseas Supply is in force :
Q1 : Can units at sea always turn face-up
and trace to whatever oil they like?
Q2 : How do units at sea trace to an oil?
Q3 : Is their "sea portion" considered used
up so they must trace a basic path?
A: Units at sea are always in supply so they
do not have to trace to oil, and can access
any oil the country might have anywhere.
Date 09/04/2007

I knew both the first and the second quote.

The third is more explanatory of this case, it is clear then that the game considers that the oil cannot trace a basic supply path overseas to Europe. I don't think this is the case, but I will check.

As for the checking of the basic supply path of any length... it cannot cross neutral countries, can it? And, can it cross sea areas with SCSs from both sides?

No, the supply path of any length can not go through neutral countries. As for the sea, if you can trace supply through a sea area, you can trace oil through it. If not, not.

[Joseignacio]

Then, I unsderstand that the oil supply works correctly for the units at sea in my game, because they all could use oil from those wells. HOwever, the path at least in the last savegame I got was bothered by Allied surface units, not contested by mine.

If we both had, would I had got the supply? I mean, no if I need convoys (which I don't), yes if I can trace supply like at the end of turn reorg, where no convoys are necessary but you need to connect ¿through seas "not controlled" by the enemy ? could it pass through contested seas?

What wouldn't work right is the saving of oil in ports, where it only lets me save one oil in just one port. Not that I want to save more, since they might go to USSR but I should have te option to. For example, the previous turn because of the weather the USSR couldnt take the country, and had to do it this one. Maybe I could have benefitted from saving a couple more, depending on which phase is earlier, oil or surrender.

[paulderynck]

For units that are not at sea, you have to trace a supply line to the the oil. If conditions exist that prohibit tracing supply overseas (with whatever overseas supply rule you are using) and there is no path over controlled hexes by land, then you can't use the oil.

You may also be running into a limit imposed by the program, as Steve has said cutting down on the distance to look for supply when implementing the isolated supply re-org option has improved on the time it takes MWiF to determine if a unit is isolated. So it's possible you can "see" a path of 60 controlled hexes uninterrupted all the way back to Germany but the program is not looking past the first 20 of those hexes before giving up.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


You may also be running into a limit imposed by the program, as Steve has said cutting down on the distance to look for supply when implementing the isolated supply re-org option has improved on the time it takes MWiF to determine if a unit is isolated. So it's possible you can "see" a path of 60 controlled hexes uninterrupted all the way back to Germany but the program is not looking past the first 20 of those hexes before giving up.

[X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][:-]

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


You may also be running into a limit imposed by the program, as Steve has said cutting down on the distance to look for supply when implementing the isolated supply re-org option has improved on the time it takes MWiF to determine if a unit is isolated. So it's possible you can "see" a path of 60 controlled hexes uninterrupted all the way back to Germany but the program is not looking past the first 20 of those hexes before giving up.

[X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][:-]

I agree. However, if the number of hexes is increased, the program becomes unplayable because of the long time it takes to recalculate supply...

Personally, I would like to see a correct calculation according to the rules at the units reorganisation phase only, without a maximum number of hexes in play

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Orm

4) Depending on what rules are used it is usually very difficult to use the Persian oil to reorg German units. CPs needed at sea is one obstacle if that option is in play. And there must be a string of Axis controlled land hexes all the way to use a land route. No neutral, no Allied, controlled hex may be drawn into for reorganization purposes.

I have some doubts about this. Even if you are using Limited Supply I understand and with the oil rule, your unit would be reorganized at the end of the turn even with the Isolated Reorganization Limit rule.

If this is true, I wonder whether the need of convoys would be a request, since it seems to come from there.