Russians in Volume II

[PrinzHenrich]

I'm thinking very seriously about changing the line formation for Russians.
As We know, Russians use in 7yw 4 rank line formation. That have important influence on the battlefield behavior off Russians unit. They were less effective in fire and more durable on the bayonet assault. They have also short front and more dangerouse to artillery fire! So I will make more accurate callculations and vector for each options, cutting off their fire factors, etc..
The next problem is using bombardments part as artillery suport for Russians unit. It was consisted of 2 Shuvalovs howitzers very usefull on canister fire but long loaded and one unicorn - an exellent and universal gun. I won't to make them like regimental guns, so propably will separate them to unit with pictures of 2 guns (medium and light) and mix factors/modifiers of fire. This mix modifiers are just project.
In Graphic setup I consider to change line formation setup from

oooo
oooo

o=one solider

to

o-o-o
-o-o-
o-o-o

or
o-o-o
o-o-o
-o-o-
I would look like that:

[PrinzHenrich]

...

[Uffz Feuerhake]

Your examples are looking good to show a 4-rank-system.

I have read about, that "long before Napoleonic wars the line of infantry was 4 and 5 ranks deep formation. Improving quality of firearms made possible to 'lighten' the line.

In 1703 the British went from 4-rank deep lines to only 3-rank deep. The rest of Europe followed them. The Prussians were the next in 1740, the French in 1754 and the Austrians in 1757."

I am not well informed about the syw-Russian army and I need your help: In which source I can find something about the Russian 4-rank-system in the syw and the effect in battle? When did the Russians change the system?


Greetings

[PrinzHenrich]

Can you read Russians? They didn't change his 4-rank line formation, but they were able to easy change 4 rank to 3. In my knowledge non of the written sources (even the Russians authors) talk about the behavior on the battlefield Russians unit or chnaging deep of the line. Most GErman sources notes, that Russians fire 3 times less than Prussians, and the were very bravours in close combat. 4 deep rank were difficult to break (of course)

[TR]

From a visual point of view that's why it would be nice to see at least 12 icons instead of 8. More than 12 would be nice, but I'm not sure if it can be done in the game at this point and time in its evolution.

[PrinzHenrich]

Yes, I also talking about that, and putting on our forum example of view such 12 members unit. It would give us posibility to put there regimental gun and more privates. Now I always put 1 officer, 1 drummer and 1 flagbearer so it takes 37,5% of visible persons. We should try to convince menagement of Matrix that increaing number of figures in unit we give players more fun and arguments to buy vollum II. It shouldn't be difficult to change it in engine and programming, I think.
  so let it be

[Uffz Feuerhake]

Hi PrinzHenrich,

maybe it is not easy to create or it is quite impossible to manage it with the graphical H&M-engine, but when you would be able to double graphically (!) one Russian musketeer from O to OO in every angel of the illustration,
then it would be possible to build this formation on the field with 6 (double-painted) units:

OO OO
OO FX                            FX could be one unit with 2 paintetd soldiers: Flagbearer (F) with an Officer (X)
OO OO

and in combination with your new battle factors calculation it could be a nice idea.



But....it is only theory

[PrinzHenrich]

I have try this, it doesn't look good. I simply double the soldiers in Tga file and save this.

[Uffz Feuerhake]

Mmmh, it don't look really bad.... I don't know a better alternative yet....

I have found a Russian website with informations about the infantry in cyrillic. The translation with a special programm in English is a little bit exceptional, but it is to understand.

"In 1755 ; finally, were released the new regulations, developed by the Colonel of 3.[G]. Chernishev. In spite of explicit [proprusskuyu] orientation. Regulations could give although some uniformity to army constructions; but time to its study no longer it remained… The freedom in the selection of optimum construction given to commanders was the undoubted merit of this document; by explicit deficiency - complication of drill manual. Construction into 4 ranks adapted now and for the shooting, only rarely they were built into 3 ranks.

All soldiers in the system had the adjoined bayonets. In the expanded linear order on the flanks of three battalions grenadier companies were placed. Between them and battalions, and also between the battalions remained the intervals into eight steps for the regimental artillery. 12 [mushketerskikh] companies, depending on of numbers of people, were calculated in each battalion for 1,2, 3 or 4 battalions; each battalion, in turn, to 4 [plutonga].

The reserves arose before the shooting behind the front: [mushketerskiy] (on one row from [poludiviziona]) - after the 2nd battalion, two grenadier - after by the 1st the 3rd battalions. The ranks, which stand in three steps from each other, moved close to the first; the first and the second arose to the elbow. Firing was produced by [poludivizionami], [plutongami], ranks, numbers, volleys and slanting fire. [Poludiviziony] began fire from right [plutonga]; by less intensive was shooting [plutongami], when on the turn shot [plutongi] of battalion. Ranks shot, beginning from the rear, series (on two) - from the right flank of each [plutonga]. " Slanting [ogon]" it was conducted at angle to the front.

Grenadier companies acted independently, and charges threw only with the retreat. Reserves remained to the quite last moment; with the attack they fired enemy, after being advanced forward. Into the regulations were introduced French novelties - construction of several types of columns. At the march were built platoon columns, for the reflection of surprise cavalry attacks - company, for the passages - regimental of " on the averages of [chastyam]" (line), for the decisive attacks - " thick of [batalonnye]" (enclosed)."


" В 1755 г., наконец, был выпущен новый Устав, разработанный полковником 3.Г. Чернышевым. Несмотря на явную пропрусскую ориентацию. Устав мог придать хоть какое-то единообразие армейским построениям; но времени на его изучение уже не оставалось... Несомненным достоинством этого документа была предоставляемая командирам свобода в выборе оптимального построения; явным недостатком - усложнение строевых приемов. Построение в 4 шеренги применялось теперь и для стрельбы, лишь изредка строились в 3 шеренги. Все солдаты в строю имели примкнутые штыки.
В развернутом линейном порядке на флангах трех батальонов ставились гренадерские роты. Между ними и батальонами, а также между батальонами оставались интервалы в восемь шагов для полковой артиллерии. 12 мушкетерских рот, в зависимости от числа людей, рассчитывались в каждом батальоне на 1, 2, 3 или 4 дивизиона; каждый дивизион, в свою очередь, на 4 плутонга. Перед стрельбой позади фронта вставали резервы: мушкетерский (по одному ряду от полудивизиона) - за 2-м батальоном, два гренадерских - за 1-ми 3-м батальонами. Шеренги, стоящие в трех шагах друг от друга, придвигались вплотную к первой; первая и вторая вставали на колено. Пальба производилась полудивизионами, плутонгами, шеренгами, рядами, залпами и косым огнем.
Полудивизионы начинали огонь с правого плутонга; менее интенсивной была стрельба плутонгами, когда по очереди стреляли плутонги дивизиона. Шеренги стреляли, начиная с задней, ряды (по два) - с правого фланга каждого плутонга. "Косой огонь" велся под углом к фронту. Гренадерские роты действовали самостоятельно, а шлаги бросали лишь при отступлении. Резервы сохранялись до самого последнего момента; при атаке они обстреливали противника, выдвинувшись вперед. В Устав были введены и французские новинки - построение нескольких видов колонн. На походе строились взводные колонны, для отражения внезапных кавалерийских атак - ротные, для переправ - полковые "по средним частям" (линии), для решительных атак - "густые батальонные" (сомкнутые)."

[Uffz Feuerhake]

Some other nice informations:


" In " [Ekzertsitsii]… of " the rules of carrying and setting of turnpikes were sufficiently in detail described. With the four-rank system of every six numbers of soldiers obtained their beam- basis even 24 peaks ([polupiki]). On the march the soldiers put on gun on the belt on the left arm, and to peak they bore on by right. In the extreme by right (from every six) to a number two soldiers, being changed, bore on the arm beam. Upon command of " Place [rogatki]" beam they carried before the first rank; two soldiers held it for the ends, and rest transferred peaks to people of the first rank, which put them in the openings of beam. After turnpikes were assembled, they coupled between themselves them with the aid of the iron hooks, fixed in the ends of beam. Examined construction reverse order. And nevertheless [minikhovskaya] " [Ekzertsitsiya]… of " only complicated Petrovskiy regulations.

Already in 1742 ; on the accession of Elizabeth Petrovna field marshal [P]. [Lassi]'s expectations restored original Petrovskiy regulations. But regimental authorities had time to get to know the taste of the independent law-making: up to the end of the century many particular commanders considered as their duty to introduce our own additions to the acting regulations and the manuals. Still some " [novshestvom]" the gradually amplifying orientation for the ceremonial instruction of soldiers became. If the functional correctness of the fulfillment of all commands was required with Peter, then now attention ever more they began to focus on beauty and monotony of motions. " [Vnushaemye]" by noncommissioned officer stick habits (positions of arms, feet, body, gun) had no practical benefit, but they gladdened eye to the checking authorities. By the weak place of regulations 1716 g. was the absence of the rules of construction square, that it attempted to correct [P]. [Lassi]'s the same, by its project of new regulations 1746 g.


The tactical constructions of regiment differed in no way from the [minikhovskikh] and, consequently, also from the Petrovskiy. The thoroughly described three versions of the square served as basic difference: " divisional battalion -[kare]" , " [ogibnoe] battalion -[kare]" and " through battalion -[kare]". In the first case the front front of square composed the 5th and 6th [mushketerskie] companies (3rd battalion), in the second - the 4th and the 5th, in the third - the 3rd and the 4th. All reformations were covered by the grenadiers, who shot and threw charges, either being united into the company (in the first case), or acting, as usual, by two half-companys on the flanks. In the square the grenadiers occupied angles, there were established regimental guns. The throwing of charges was allowed only from the square and with the retreat. The commands of staff officers were duplicated up by regimental musicians and drummers. Thus, for the offensive they beat the signal of " [pokhod]" , and after the beginning of offensive - " [marsh]" ; for the retreat - " [retirada]" and " from [polya]" ; shooting was achieved on the signal of " [drob]" , and construction by square - on " [trevoge]". "



" В "Экзерциции..." довольно подробно были описаны правила ношения и постановки рогаток. При четырехшереножном строе каждые шесть рядов солдат получали свой брус-основу и 24 пики (полупики). На марше солдаты надевали ружье на ремне на левое плечо, а пику несли на правом. В крайнем правом (из каждых шести) ряду два солдата, сменяясь, несли на плече брус. По команде "Ставь рогатки" брус выносили перед первую шеренгу; два солдата держали его за концы, а остальные передавали пики людям первой шеренги, которые вставляли их в отверстия бруса. После того, как рогатки были собраны, их сцепляли между собой с помощью железных крючьев, закрепленных в торцах бруса. Разбиралась конструкция в обратном порядке. И все-таки миниховская "Экзерциция..." лишь усложнила петровский Устав. Уже в 1742 г., по воцарении Елизаветы Петровны чаяниями фельдмаршала П. Ласси был восстановлен изначальный петровский Устав. Но полковое начальство успело познать вкус самостоятельного законотворчества: вплоть до конца века многие частные командиры считали своим долгом вносить собственные дополнения к действующим уставам и наставлениям. Еще одним "новшеством" стала постепенно усиливающаяся ориентация на парадное обучение солдат. Если при Петре требовалась функциональная правильность выполнения всех команд, то теперь внимание все более стали обращать на красивость и однообразность движений. "Внушаемые" унтер-офицерской палкой навыки (положения рук, ног, туловища, ружья) не имели никакой практической пользы, но радовали глаз проверяющему начальству. Слабым местом Устава 1716 г. было отсутствие правил построения каре, что попытался исправить тот же П. Ласси, своим проектом нового Устава 1746 г.
Тактические построения полка ничем не отличались от миниховских, а следовательно, и от петровских. Основным отличием служили тщательно описанные три варианта каре: "дивизионное батальон-каре", "огибное батальон-каре" и "сквозное батальон-каре". В первом случае передний фас каре составляли 5-я и 6-я мушкетерские роты (3-й дивизион), во втором - 4-я и 5-я, в третьем - 3-я и 4-я. Все перестроения прикрывались гренадерами, которые стреляли и бросали шлаги, либо объединяясь в роту (в первом случае), либо действуя, как обычно, двумя полуротами на флангах. В каре гренадеры занимали углы, там же устанавливались и полковые пушки. Метание шлагов допускалось лишь из каре и при отступлении. Команды штаб-офицеров дублировались полковыми музыкантами и барабанщиками. Так, для наступления били сигнал "поход", а после начала наступления - "марш"; для отступления - "ретирада" и "с поля"; стрельба осуществлялась по сигналу "дробь", а построение каре - по "тревоге".

[PrinzHenrich]

Look like from Seven year war- Civil War Generals website from Luterm. I know Russian a little bit, can improve this translation

[Uffz Feuerhake]

Yes, try it.

My Russian language is a little bit limited. I can't make a nice conversation with "yes - No - Halt - Hands up - quick" and some bad words [8D]

[PrinzHenrich]

"In 1755 ; finally, were released the new regulations, developed by the Colonel of 3.[G]. Chernishev. In spite of explicit [ pro- prussian] orientation. Regulations could give although some uniformity to army constructions; but time to its study no longer it remained… The freedom in the selection of optimum construction given to commanders was the undoubted merit of this document; by explicit deficiency - complication of drill manual. Construction into 4 ranks adapted now and for the shooting, only rarely they were built into 3 ranks.

All soldiers in the system had the adjoined bayonets. In the expanded linear order on the flanks of three battalions, grenadier companies were placed. Between them and battalions, and also between the battalions remained the intervals into eight steps for the regimental artillery. 12 [musketeers] companies, depending on of numbers of people, were calculated in each battalion for 1,2, 3 or 4 battalions; each battalion, in turn, to 4 [platoons].

The reserves arose before the shooting behind the front: [musketeers] (on one row from [south zone]) - after the 2nd battalion, two grenadier - after by the 1st the 3rd battalions. The ranks, which stand in three steps from each other, moved close to the first; the first and the second arose to the elbow. Firing was produced by [south zones], [platoons], ranks, numbers, volleys and slanting fire. [South zone] began fire from right [platoons]; by less intensive was shooting [platoons], when on the turn shot [platoons] of battalion. Ranks shot, beginning from the rear, series (on two) - from the right flank of each [platoon]. " [Oblique fire]" it was conducted at angle to the front.

Grenadier companies acted independently, and charges threw only with the retreat. Reserves remained to the quite last moment; with the attack they fired enemy, after being advanced forward. Into the regulations were introduced French novelties - construction of several types of columns. At the march were built platoon columns, for the reflection of surprise cavalry attacks - company, for the passages - regimental of " on the averages [parts of line], for the decisive attacks - " thick of [battalions]" (enclosed)."


" В 1755 г., наконец, был выпущен новый Устав, разработанный полковником 3.Г. Чернышевым. Несмотря на явную пропрусскую ориентацию. Устав мог придать хоть какое-то единообразие армейским построениям; но времени на его изучение уже не оставалось... Несомненным достоинством этого документа была предоставляемая командирам свобода в выборе оптимального построения; явным недостатком - усложнение строевых приемов. Построение в 4 шеренги применялось теперь и для стрельбы, лишь изредка строились в 3 шеренги. Все солдаты в строю имели примкнутые штыки.
В развернутом линейном порядке на флангах трех батальонов ставились гренадерские роты. Между ними и батальонами, а также между батальонами оставались интервалы в восемь шагов для полковой артиллерии. 12 мушкетерских рот, в зависимости от числа людей, рассчитывались в каждом батальоне на 1, 2, 3 или 4 дивизиона; каждый дивизион, в свою очередь, на 4 плутонга. Перед стрельбой позади фронта вставали резервы: мушкетерский (по одному ряду от полудивизиона) - за 2-м батальоном, два гренадерских - за 1-ми 3-м батальонами. Шеренги, стоящие в трех шагах друг от друга, придвигались вплотную к первой; первая и вторая вставали на колено. Пальба производилась полудивизионами, плутонгами, шеренгами, рядами, залпами и косым огнем.
Полудивизионы начинали огонь с правого плутонга; менее интенсивной была стрельба плутонгами, когда по очереди стреляли плутонги дивизиона. Шеренги стреляли, начиная с задней, ряды (по два) - с правого фланга каждого плутонга. "Косой огонь" велся под углом к фронту. Гренадерские роты действовали самостоятельно, а шлаги бросали лишь при отступлении. Резервы сохранялись до самого последнего момента; при атаке они обстреливали противника, выдвинувшись вперед. В Устав были введены и французские новинки - построение нескольких видов колонн. На походе строились взводные колонны, для отражения внезапных кавалерийских атак - ротные, для переправ - полковые "по средним частям" (линии), для решительных атак - "густые батальонные" (сомкнутые)."

[..] = my notes from your translate
Second text will apeared tomorrow

[Uffz Feuerhake]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjDP2hhLUgw&NR=1
 
Volley in 4 ranks by Preobrazhensky Life Guards, 1709 (Reenactment...nice to see!)

[PrinzHenrich]

Yeah, but in 7yw they volley more like in Napoleonic time, were 4th rank just load the muskeets :

[Magnus]

Anyone seen this movie? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrcu2AezIJI&feature=related

Although the uniforms isn´t entirely correct it is however Poltava, released just a year or so ago.

However the SYW Swedes looked exactly like this, the used the old uniform of 1700 even up to SYW. 1765 they got the new uniforms with Prussian cut

[Uffz Feuerhake]

No, I don't know this film, but it is cool to see swedish troops in syw-uniforms in action. [:)]
I will try to find more scenes..... Thank you!


I am always a little bit "sad" to see the unhistoric / unreal action of an artillery piece with no backstroke and exploding granates between the troops. Of course it is not easy to show the real effect of a full iron canonball, jumping through the lines and columns ala' Ricochet.... mmh...... that is fact through the first "flintlock"-films from 19xx til today after "The Patriot" or "Waterloo" etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMILWzE9f0k

[PrinzHenrich]

Need to download for the other beta testers. This is simple presentation to show, how to move single soldier in formation:

[Sertorius1]

PH,

Got it. I didn't realize the numbered buttons were active until I saw that drawing of yours. Excellent. This is go into the editor notes.

[PrinzHenrich]

Happy to help and share my experience with editor work.