Generals' Teachable Special Abilities

[Gil R.]

Viewing,
It's definitely something we'll consider for the future. We've tried to reflect generals' poor performance in their ratings, but I can see how a few negative abilities might be interesting to have. (Ratings do do some of what you'd like to see: for example, while a general can't demoralize his troops, if his leadership rating is bad then he can't raise their morale.) We'll have to think about how they'd work in our system. One problem is that special abilities are permanent, so if a brigade is under a lousy general and picks up bad habits, it would retain those habits under a much better general. So the best thing might be what Diggypiggy is suggesting, and make them attributes of generals, meaning that they wouldn't be passed on to troops, but would affect generals' performances.

We also have some ideas for additional ratings for generals, and other ways of making generals much more multi-faceted, but I won't go into those other ideas just yet...

(We also have ideas for more special abilities, but again that's going to have to wait.)

[Gil R.]

Strange that "Organized" and "Bulldogs" aren't in the manual. In the "Special.txt" datafile they're the last two special abilities, so maybe they just got skipped.

In that file, the description of Organized is:
Make formation checks as if unit's morale were +2.0

And Bulldogs is:
Enemies get no flanking damage in fire combat

[Twotribes]

I assume there is no method to make an attribute of a general only temperory ( only trainable in detailed battle temporarily)?

[Gil R.]

Not now. I think it could be done with a bit of programming, but might also require new graphics. Thus it's not something for this patch.

[Viewing]

Viewing,
It's definitely something we'll consider for the future. We've tried to reflect generals' poor performance in their ratings, but I can see how a few negative abilities might be interesting to have. (Ratings do do some of what you'd like to see: for example, while a general can't demoralize his troops, if his leadership rating is bad then he can't raise their morale.) We'll have to think about how they'd work in our system. One problem is that special abilities are permanent, so if a brigade is under a lousy general and picks up bad habits, it would retain those habits under a much better general. So the best thing might be what Diggypiggy is suggesting, and make them attributes of generals, meaning that they wouldn't be passed on to troops, but would affect generals' performances.

I see your point. Otherwise, a brigade made by Little Mac would hardly turn into the kind that could work with Grant.

We also have some ideas for additional ratings for generals, and other ways of making generals much more multi-faceted, but I won't go into those other ideas just yet...

Now, that sounds intriguing. Guess I'll have to wait, too.

Another possible rating: speaking of Little Mac--

Little Mac: Disciplined (whatever else they may have become, he knew how to build disciplined troops!)

[Gil R.]

(Bump)

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

I assume there is no method to make an attribute of a general only temperory ( only trainable in detailed battle temporarily)?

Generals can give temp skills to there troops during battle (the HARD part is unless you know all of your troops inside and out, you may not notice when it happens)

[Gil R.]

I'm still open to suggestions... Still working on this for the patch...

[Walloc]

Hi Gil,


This is an observation ofc based on pre patch and is purely my opinion based on my way of play. So its not an opinion based in history, but more an gaming issue as i see it.

IMO the ability, Heroes is by far the most valueble ability in detailed battles.
If u have a 5 unit division and have 1 unit in the division with Heroes. Place that in the middle and have 2 units on each side all units in that division is covered by the ability. U can extend that with more division with same setup having 1 long battleline covered by have 1 heroes unit in each division.
The force multiplier by having all ur units covered by Heroes is IMO decisive. The continued build up of lost moral enables you to enter firefights and if managed well(remove units from the battle line if necesary), rarely having units break. Only if u have very low start moral units, taking a 1 time high casulty attack and as said if u manage ur battleline, do ur units break. Well having an army where u units dont break and the enemies does makes for alot of wins

This for me was one way of overcomming AI units in trenches, early in the war with fairly ease. Playing both the AI battles and vs humans on LAN, i cant remember losing battles using this tactic. Less opposed by same. Humans tend to learn .

Well this leads to my observation. As it stands now the CSA Having 2 leaders thats from start is most certainly going to used in large commands enabling them to teach lots of units with the ability. 2ndly they both have high
leadership ratings making teaching the abilty "easy". This leads to the CSA having in a year or 2, many to most their units having this ability. This in combination with high moral, staff rating and generals makes their armies invincible. But even playing as USA using the tactic is a battle winner making me see it as the single most decisive factor.

As US side u have problems with gaining this ability for ur units, making for an IMO decisive inbalance. U have few generals with this ability and they are low % so in many games u dont get them.  2ndly they dont have high leadership so even in the games u do have them and making them army commanders, for 35 unit "training" armies, only 1 2 units gets the ability in 3 years time. Assuming u can spare units for training armies which might be hard pressed. The generals with the ablity for the US isnt exactly combat command materiel. 

The only way really to get them as US is through LU and indeed a few US units have it. More importandly tho seems Freedmen. In some games and this is very erratic, u never get any freedmen with heroes only sustained fire, but in others u get around 50% 50% heroes and sustained fire. This makes it like a coin toss where or not u are able to utilize this strategy as US.

My main concern is for play vs Human. I dont seem to have that many probs with overcomming the AI in other ways as US vs CSA AI.

I know the patch will include so many upgrades and changing of how the game balance works that i cant say how the tactic will work post patch.
Tho as it stands now i see it as a major advantage/inbalancer for the CSA if detailed battles are played and the tactic used.

So it might be for purely gaming reason be an issue to look into, giving US more useble/appearing generals with the abilty or limiting the CSA's side in that regard. Or other wise looking at the ability.


Kind regards,

Rasmus

[Gil R.]

I'm glad you mentioned this issue, since while assigning teachable abilities to generals recently I've been thinking about it, and came up with an idea that I hope we can implement for a patch or the next one.

One of the changes in this patch is that units now can earn special abilities through combat. What this means is that we could designate certain abilities (Heroes and Dreaded in particular, but perhaps Shooters and 2-3 others) as only being available to units in this manner. Generals would no longer get to teach those abilities, which would prevent a guy like Lee (or whoever has it) from teaching it to numerous units. Legendary Units would still have such abilities from the start, which would be fine, but they'd be harder to come by and more valuable. I'm curious what you and others think of this idea.

I don't know whether we'll have time to put it in this upcoming patch, since we don't want to delay its release any further, but I think it could be done sometime in the not too distant future if people supported the idea.

[Walloc]

Hi Gil,
 
I like that idea much better. Those "special" abilities as you mention, btw same as i would think of, Heroes and dreaded to be restricted. Getting it through combat seems excellent. Make sense that a unit like the Iron brigade with its combat record, IMO certainly is applical.  A Dynamic approche where if other units did as it did historicly to get same bonus, sounds good.
 
It should prolly be fixed at the same time in Freedmen, making it impossible for them to start with it. As it is now, where in certain games u can get lucky and gets lots, its an possible inbalancer under a new system. I dont really consider them as LU's, any how.
 
Kind regards,
 
Rasmus

[Gil R.]

What do you mean by "Freedmen"?

[Walloc]

Hi Gil,

Afroamerican units that US side gains in Potomac after an US emancipation.
Do i remember incorrectly or just misspelled? been a while since i played. Been waiting for the patch and played EU3 in the mean time

Kind Regards,

Rasmus

[Gil R.]

No, that's what I mean by the word "Freedmen," too. I just couldn't figure out what they had to do with special abilities. I guess you're saying that you want it so that such units can't gain "Heroes" (presumably because they would not exactly have raised the morale of adjacent all-white units)?

[Walloc]

Hi Gil,

No, sorry if i wasnt clear.  In about a 1/3 of my games. Half of the freedmen(can end up with being quite a number of units) unit starts with the Heroes ability. Rest has Sustained volley ability. In the other 2/3 all the units has Sustained Volley.
Its in those cases where the Freedmen units starts with Heroes that IMO under a new system should be addressed. Aka removed from start. I have no problem with them gained it. If an All black unit did as for example Iron brigade i dont see why they shouldnt gain it like any other unit.

Do i make sense now?


Kind regards,

Rasmus

[Gil R.]

Yes. I'll have to look into it. (I thought you were referring to the units that the CSA gets after emancipation by the Union. I don't remember the Union getting added troops, but that might be because I usually playtest as the CSA.)

[Twotribes]

The Freedman units appear in Potomac for US and are a set random chance after emancipation. Each one always starts at 3 morale ( I believe) and has one trait assigned.

For me it was never a very high chance that they would appear, I believe I have gotten maybe 6 total in over 2 yearsplay time as the union. Normally by mid 64 I was lucky to have 3 , 4 max. I like to gather them all together under one Division for the Flag to go with them ).

[Walloc]

Hi Twotribes,

My experience are some what more erratic. In some games i get 6 units like u in others i might get as high as 30-40 units. In 1 game I had an entire back up army made up of only freedmen. Yes, in my experiecne so I assume its hardcoded they are all 3 moral.

The odd thing is that i get many or almost non. Never inbetween. This is in maybe 20 played games as US side. And its usually when i get many that i get the Heroes ability ones too.


Kind Regards,

Rasmus

[ericbabe]

Freedmen units do start with a randomly chosen special ability.

[christof139]

Hmmm?? Wouldn't it be more accurate to give newly created Freedman units only a 0.25 to 0.50 boost in morale, as some units performed very well and average while other units performed poorly??  By giving all newly created Freedman units a 3.0 morale plus an attribute, that is making all of them elite units from the get-go, which they weren't.
 
Chris