HiHi
Fascinating stuff, keep up the reports, I'm enjoying them immensely.
Nemo I hope this isn’t out of order, I'm adding this to hopefully help alleviate some of the imbalance between you both re experience, there may ... may not, be some stuff you find useful here, http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=44511 go have a looksee.
IMO (and that’s all it is, my opinion) in these BG games command radius is vitally important, even more so for feds as their troops and in general their commanders are weak, so try as far as pos to keep your corps/div/bgds within their command radius especially XI corps, dunno if it’s the whole corps or just some units in it but I believe the name ‘Flying Dutch’ was applied to them.
Sometimes I know it is necessary to send divs (sometimes even Bgds/Regiments) out of Corps command radius to bolster up the line but be aware there is a danger to it. + when planning remember the times units come onto the field is not the time they will engage the enemy, count the hexes from their arrival points to were you think they will be needed and factor that in to your calculations, hope this is of help and not taken as unseemly butting in, Good Luck.
All the Best
Peter
They're OUR shoes DAMNIT!!!!!
RE: They're OUR shoes DAMNIT!!!!!
Aye, I'd appreciate any help re: command radii etc as I found that bit of the manual unclear.
I have been doing my best to keep Bde, Division and Corps commanders concentrated at the crucial spots - e.g Apple Orchard Hill contains 2 Bde commanders and their divisional and corps commanders. Where I have a problem is in determining just what the radii are. I can understand that the leadership rating determines the chance of success of die rolls but how do I tell what radius of effect they have? So far I'm just trying to play it safe and concentrate my leaders IN the same hex as most of their troops on the basis that that MUST give them the best chance to effect things.
I'm pretty confident with the overall strategy in terms of frightening John into delaying his advance and then reading it so that I could tell where his feint would come and where his main attack would come and pulling out of my positions so that his main attacks just landed on thin air but I am definitely seeing a difference in our ability to get the game to do what we want it to do. With that said I think that with the advent of 3 divisions over the next hour ( 1 to solidify my right flank, 1 to shore up the troops under pressure south of Apple Orchard Hill and 1 to attack HIS troops on Peach Orchard Hill in the rear ) that things should shift to my favour.
Looking at the battle situation i've got to admit that I can't see HOW the Union could have held on Day 1 without massive Confederate tentativeness bordering on the incompetent. Jackson was dead by this time and I just cannot believe that if either he or Longstreet had been on the scene on Day 1 that the Union would have arrived to find its 2 Day 1 Corps in command of the vital terrain. Instead they'd have found two crushed corps sitting on the low ground sheltering out of sight of the Rebel cannon.
I should point out at this stage that I'm playing this game as though it was part of a campaign. E.g. My understanding is that as Union commander I only have to withstand the Rebels in battle to force their retreat due to lack of supply/cannon ammunition etc. So an operational draw is the same as a strategic win for me and so that's what I'm playing for. Risk little, lose little in Day 1. Risk little win little in Day 2 and then risk big and win big in Day 3 if the situation warrants it.
Over the last hour the Rebel manoeuvres have exposed them to my fire and fully 600 more of their troops and a divisional and Bde commander have been killed. They've swung around behind Apple Hill and attack it both frontally and from both flanks. My lines have been pushed back a little BUT I've managed to disrupt about half the attacking regiments, rout 2 more and so far only 1 of my regiments has routed with another becoming disrupted. The enemy has only committed 50% of his force while mine is fully committed but so long as he doesn't melee my forces on Apple Orchard Hill I should be fine.
I'll post pictures when I get his reply back.
I have been doing my best to keep Bde, Division and Corps commanders concentrated at the crucial spots - e.g Apple Orchard Hill contains 2 Bde commanders and their divisional and corps commanders. Where I have a problem is in determining just what the radii are. I can understand that the leadership rating determines the chance of success of die rolls but how do I tell what radius of effect they have? So far I'm just trying to play it safe and concentrate my leaders IN the same hex as most of their troops on the basis that that MUST give them the best chance to effect things.
I'm pretty confident with the overall strategy in terms of frightening John into delaying his advance and then reading it so that I could tell where his feint would come and where his main attack would come and pulling out of my positions so that his main attacks just landed on thin air but I am definitely seeing a difference in our ability to get the game to do what we want it to do. With that said I think that with the advent of 3 divisions over the next hour ( 1 to solidify my right flank, 1 to shore up the troops under pressure south of Apple Orchard Hill and 1 to attack HIS troops on Peach Orchard Hill in the rear ) that things should shift to my favour.
Looking at the battle situation i've got to admit that I can't see HOW the Union could have held on Day 1 without massive Confederate tentativeness bordering on the incompetent. Jackson was dead by this time and I just cannot believe that if either he or Longstreet had been on the scene on Day 1 that the Union would have arrived to find its 2 Day 1 Corps in command of the vital terrain. Instead they'd have found two crushed corps sitting on the low ground sheltering out of sight of the Rebel cannon.
I should point out at this stage that I'm playing this game as though it was part of a campaign. E.g. My understanding is that as Union commander I only have to withstand the Rebels in battle to force their retreat due to lack of supply/cannon ammunition etc. So an operational draw is the same as a strategic win for me and so that's what I'm playing for. Risk little, lose little in Day 1. Risk little win little in Day 2 and then risk big and win big in Day 3 if the situation warrants it.
Over the last hour the Rebel manoeuvres have exposed them to my fire and fully 600 more of their troops and a divisional and Bde commander have been killed. They've swung around behind Apple Hill and attack it both frontally and from both flanks. My lines have been pushed back a little BUT I've managed to disrupt about half the attacking regiments, rout 2 more and so far only 1 of my regiments has routed with another becoming disrupted. The enemy has only committed 50% of his force while mine is fully committed but so long as he doesn't melee my forces on Apple Orchard Hill I should be fine.
I'll post pictures when I get his reply back.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: They're OUR shoes DAMNIT!!!!!
Corps don't have command radii. Only divisions and brigades do, FYI.
RE: They're OUR shoes DAMNIT!!!!!
HiHi
Ashantai is quite right Army & Corps commanders do not have command radii, Div & Bgd radii are given in the parameter details from the help menu. Very, very roughly for the purposes disruption & rout, an in command Army leader will if he rolls his dice check OK pass a +1 onto Corps commanders if they pass they pass on an additional +1 to Div & div to Bgd etc, this is how a Col Annon with a ‘F’ rating if in command can rally routed troops, least thats as I understand it.
To find out where units are coming on to the field of battle click on reinforcements/scheduled/then the unit, the game will then jump you to where the unit comes on. Dont forget use the Shift key to bring up place names etc on the map.
In haste.
All the Best
Peter
Ashantai is quite right Army & Corps commanders do not have command radii, Div & Bgd radii are given in the parameter details from the help menu. Very, very roughly for the purposes disruption & rout, an in command Army leader will if he rolls his dice check OK pass a +1 onto Corps commanders if they pass they pass on an additional +1 to Div & div to Bgd etc, this is how a Col Annon with a ‘F’ rating if in command can rally routed troops, least thats as I understand it.
To find out where units are coming on to the field of battle click on reinforcements/scheduled/then the unit, the game will then jump you to where the unit comes on. Dont forget use the Shift key to bring up place names etc on the map.
In haste.
All the Best
Peter
RE: They're OUR shoes DAMNIT!!!!!
If your units do route, running over there with one of the commanders in their chain of command adds to their recovery die roll and will get them back in action sooner. Also, unless you want them to keep on running... immediately do an about face with routed units. When they recover, you've saved several movement points by having them facing the right way to get back into the action. I also try to move several routed units together so that it only takes one commander to help rally them.
Signature? Maybe someday over the rainbow.
RE: They're OUR shoes DAMNIT!!!!!
The command checks do not effect routing or rallying, only undisruption. A leader does not have to be 'in command' to be able to rally or keep a unit from running. A leader uses his leadership value in place of the unit's quality if it is higher, or adds +1 if it is not. This means that a unit such as the Iron Brigade will never rout unless severely damaged, and removed of its leader.
RE: They're OUR shoes DAMNIT!!!!!
Thanks guys...
Update as of 5pm.
1. Two new Union divisions enter the field west of Sheep's Hill. The first makes for Cemetery Hill where John is OBVIOUSLY planning a big attack ( should be 2 to 2.5 divisions... The division he had heading for Wolf's Hill has stopped and deployed in a column of lines facing Cemetery Hill... He hasn't even deceptively manoeuvred it to ake it look like it is heading for Culp's Hill, it is heading STRAIGHT for Cemetery Hill .... Another half division has been sitting outside Gettysburg for about 1 hour in a little dip in the ground and my cavalry regiment ( sole surviving cavalry
) has spotted an entire Rebel division heading straight down "The Pike" toward Gettysburg. Add in another 6 to 8 Regiments in the woods north-east of Cemetery Ridge and undeniably there are about 2.5 divisions deployed ready to hit the angle of my line at Cemetery Ridge. ).
2. The second division is going to head north to bolster the right flank.
3. At 5:20 I get my third division which gets to hit the Rebels in the rear. That should fully secure my left flank.
So, John has attacked, half-enveloped me and gotten a foothold on Apple Orchard Hill. In response to his attack by Thomas' Bde ( 950 men in 3 regiments + Thomas ) I manoeuvred off the hill and assaulted him destroying those 3 Regiments and killing Thomas. Elsewhere he punched through east of Apple Orchard Hill but a nicely timed sally by 4 Regiments from XI Corps managed to rout 3 enemy Regiments and inflict over 300 casualties. Sure, he'll attack me again and rout Krazno's boys but by that time I'll have won the delay I wanted and be withdrawing in order to link up with the newly arriving division on my left.
Overall I captured 3 Regiments and a Bde commander and routed another 5 Regiments. Not bad for 1 x XI Corps division and 1 Bde from 2nd Division, 1st Corps. My units are in relatively good shape, I'm going to lose maybe 5 or 6 regiments on Apple Hill BUT they will have delayed, routed and disrupted most of his 3 attacking divisions and bought me the time I need to really shore up the left flank.
Rebel infantry casualties now stand at close to 3,500 men compared to 250 Union infantry and 2,000 Union cavalry casualties. My losses will soon rise but the VAST majority of my losses are going to be category E and D units. He is losing B and C units.
Update as of 5pm.
1. Two new Union divisions enter the field west of Sheep's Hill. The first makes for Cemetery Hill where John is OBVIOUSLY planning a big attack ( should be 2 to 2.5 divisions... The division he had heading for Wolf's Hill has stopped and deployed in a column of lines facing Cemetery Hill... He hasn't even deceptively manoeuvred it to ake it look like it is heading for Culp's Hill, it is heading STRAIGHT for Cemetery Hill .... Another half division has been sitting outside Gettysburg for about 1 hour in a little dip in the ground and my cavalry regiment ( sole surviving cavalry
) has spotted an entire Rebel division heading straight down "The Pike" toward Gettysburg. Add in another 6 to 8 Regiments in the woods north-east of Cemetery Ridge and undeniably there are about 2.5 divisions deployed ready to hit the angle of my line at Cemetery Ridge. ).
2. The second division is going to head north to bolster the right flank.
3. At 5:20 I get my third division which gets to hit the Rebels in the rear. That should fully secure my left flank.
So, John has attacked, half-enveloped me and gotten a foothold on Apple Orchard Hill. In response to his attack by Thomas' Bde ( 950 men in 3 regiments + Thomas ) I manoeuvred off the hill and assaulted him destroying those 3 Regiments and killing Thomas. Elsewhere he punched through east of Apple Orchard Hill but a nicely timed sally by 4 Regiments from XI Corps managed to rout 3 enemy Regiments and inflict over 300 casualties. Sure, he'll attack me again and rout Krazno's boys but by that time I'll have won the delay I wanted and be withdrawing in order to link up with the newly arriving division on my left.
Overall I captured 3 Regiments and a Bde commander and routed another 5 Regiments. Not bad for 1 x XI Corps division and 1 Bde from 2nd Division, 1st Corps. My units are in relatively good shape, I'm going to lose maybe 5 or 6 regiments on Apple Hill BUT they will have delayed, routed and disrupted most of his 3 attacking divisions and bought me the time I need to really shore up the left flank.
Rebel infantry casualties now stand at close to 3,500 men compared to 250 Union infantry and 2,000 Union cavalry casualties. My losses will soon rise but the VAST majority of my losses are going to be category E and D units. He is losing B and C units.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: They're OUR shoes DAMNIT!!!!!
Hm, John is using routed infanry regiments which have retreated behind my lines to cut off the lines of retreat of my troops and allow his troops to catch my guys as they conduct a fighting withdrawal. This is.... disappointing .... as:
a) he doesn't need to do this - I am so inexperienced with the game that it hands him a major advantage anyways.
b) it is utterly and undeniably unrealistic. The one thing routed troops NEVER did was run toward the escape routes enemy units would take with a view to getting close to those enemy when they retreated.
In other news: Finally his attack is going in on Cemetery Hill. I will be able to reinforce it JUST as his forces get into hand to hand range. 20 minutes either way will result in the saving of or the sundering of my lines. To be honest though the routed unit usage has taken a lot of the fun out of this game. I never even considered using my units that way.
a) he doesn't need to do this - I am so inexperienced with the game that it hands him a major advantage anyways.
b) it is utterly and undeniably unrealistic. The one thing routed troops NEVER did was run toward the escape routes enemy units would take with a view to getting close to those enemy when they retreated.
In other news: Finally his attack is going in on Cemetery Hill. I will be able to reinforce it JUST as his forces get into hand to hand range. 20 minutes either way will result in the saving of or the sundering of my lines. To be honest though the routed unit usage has taken a lot of the fun out of this game. I never even considered using my units that way.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: They're OUR shoes DAMNIT!!!!!
17:20... In what will go down as one of the costliest forty minutes of fighting of the entire war over 4,000 Rebel soldiers and 500 Union soldiers fell in and around Peach Orchard. 6 entire Rebel Regiments were wiped out to a man and now, after an additional XI Corps Brigade was fed into the fighting to stabilise the position right of Apple Orchard ( and capture 2 Regiments and rout 5 ) the enemy main battery ( over 40 guns ) now only has 4 Regiments standing between it and over a dozen vengeful Union regiments. I am, therefore, promising to take the guns but will not, of course, do any such thing.
I have kept the door to Cemetery Ridge open, inflicted several times the casualties on the enemy and will retire to the defensive line I had already picked out ( which I've shown above with the DARK BLUE line in my last picture.
To the south of Apple Orchard Hill 2 enemy Bdes attempted to push through a gap between I Corps and XI Corps Divisions but vicious assaults by both units have routed all but 3 of the enemy regiments leaving them horrendously outnumbered and liable to be cut off themselves if they push forward. They may continue to push forward but, really, their ability to advance quickly and wipe my forces out has been removed by dint of my assaults --- Why? Well each assault reduced their rate of advance by 50% so even if the assault failed I doubled the time the envelopment took and, most of the time, my assaults actually forced a retreat or rout.
The enemy is in Gettysburg now and I expect him to hit my lines next turn. This is ok though as:
a) I have a full Bde in hiding on Cemetery Ridge which I am CERTAIN John knows nothing about ( I'm sure he has been counting units and his count should reveal that alll but ONE of my divisions has been committed. What he doesn't know is that I kept 1 Bde of XI Corps troops in reserve.
b) 2 Bdes of Wadsworths boys are in position to shore up the south-eastern flank of Cemetery Ridge over the next hour or so an this gives me the flexibility to redeploy the Be holding this area to the centre ( where the main attack will undoubtedly come ).
c) My first reinforcing division is on its way and should reach Cemetery Ridge next turn and be in fighting positions 20 minutes after that.
So, I predict he will hit me with a march column coming out of Gettysburg and he WILL break my front at one point. Unfortunately for him I will bring most of a Bde out in response and will push him out whilst using my reinforcements to take up the positions vacated by that Bde.
It has been DAMNED close but I think he is going to turn out to be just 20 minutes too slow. It'll be a bit touch and go but I think that, in the end, that's how it is going to turn out.
His losses are horrific. Over the past 80 minutes I've lost 500 men, he has lost over 4,400. Sure, I've lost 8 cannon also but I have enough cannon and don't need them to hold till nightfall. Those 4,400 men would have been HUGELY useful to him in breaking my position now.
I think I really, really rattled him with my attack. Well, rattled is the wrong word.... I think he just didn't understand why I was doing it and thought it could never work. Boy am I glad to have shown him wrong.
I have kept the door to Cemetery Ridge open, inflicted several times the casualties on the enemy and will retire to the defensive line I had already picked out ( which I've shown above with the DARK BLUE line in my last picture.
To the south of Apple Orchard Hill 2 enemy Bdes attempted to push through a gap between I Corps and XI Corps Divisions but vicious assaults by both units have routed all but 3 of the enemy regiments leaving them horrendously outnumbered and liable to be cut off themselves if they push forward. They may continue to push forward but, really, their ability to advance quickly and wipe my forces out has been removed by dint of my assaults --- Why? Well each assault reduced their rate of advance by 50% so even if the assault failed I doubled the time the envelopment took and, most of the time, my assaults actually forced a retreat or rout.
The enemy is in Gettysburg now and I expect him to hit my lines next turn. This is ok though as:
a) I have a full Bde in hiding on Cemetery Ridge which I am CERTAIN John knows nothing about ( I'm sure he has been counting units and his count should reveal that alll but ONE of my divisions has been committed. What he doesn't know is that I kept 1 Bde of XI Corps troops in reserve.
b) 2 Bdes of Wadsworths boys are in position to shore up the south-eastern flank of Cemetery Ridge over the next hour or so an this gives me the flexibility to redeploy the Be holding this area to the centre ( where the main attack will undoubtedly come ).
c) My first reinforcing division is on its way and should reach Cemetery Ridge next turn and be in fighting positions 20 minutes after that.
So, I predict he will hit me with a march column coming out of Gettysburg and he WILL break my front at one point. Unfortunately for him I will bring most of a Bde out in response and will push him out whilst using my reinforcements to take up the positions vacated by that Bde.
It has been DAMNED close but I think he is going to turn out to be just 20 minutes too slow. It'll be a bit touch and go but I think that, in the end, that's how it is going to turn out.
His losses are horrific. Over the past 80 minutes I've lost 500 men, he has lost over 4,400. Sure, I've lost 8 cannon also but I have enough cannon and don't need them to hold till nightfall. Those 4,400 men would have been HUGELY useful to him in breaking my position now.
I think I really, really rattled him with my attack. Well, rattled is the wrong word.... I think he just didn't understand why I was doing it and thought it could never work. Boy am I glad to have shown him wrong
. John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: They're OUR shoes DAMNIT!!!!!
Waow... I think the first day is over for him. he is likely to pull back to a defensive line now, maybe as far back as seminary ridge...
the paradigm of the battle switches fundamentaly : the condeferate offensive is over, now they defend. The question is will you attack to win the battle decisively or reason strategically in context of the campaign and consider that you have forced the end of Confederate offensive operations and you have therefore won anyway if situation stays as such, leaving him to either concede or try to attack again..
you exploited ZOCs really well with that counterattack. I always found ZOCs limitations to be the main problem with the Battleground series. in an actual battle very few soldiers would surrender except in the closing stage when all is lost. With you counter attack you should have killed many, captured a few (when there is a rout, a small percentage of soldiers should be considered prisonners) and routed a lot. That would have been more historical.
Well done.
the paradigm of the battle switches fundamentaly : the condeferate offensive is over, now they defend. The question is will you attack to win the battle decisively or reason strategically in context of the campaign and consider that you have forced the end of Confederate offensive operations and you have therefore won anyway if situation stays as such, leaving him to either concede or try to attack again..
you exploited ZOCs really well with that counterattack. I always found ZOCs limitations to be the main problem with the Battleground series. in an actual battle very few soldiers would surrender except in the closing stage when all is lost. With you counter attack you should have killed many, captured a few (when there is a rout, a small percentage of soldiers should be considered prisonners) and routed a lot. That would have been more historical.
Well done.
Adieu Ô Dieu odieux... signé Adam
RE: They're OUR shoes DAMNIT!!!!!
ORIGINAL: Nemo121
Hm, John is using routed infanry regiments which have retreated behind my lines to cut off the lines of retreat of my troops and allow his troops to catch my guys as they conduct a fighting withdrawal. This is.... disappointing .... as:
a) he doesn't need to do this - I am so inexperienced with the game that it hands him a major advantage anyways.
b) it is utterly and undeniably unrealistic. The one thing routed troops NEVER did was run toward the escape routes enemy units would take with a view to getting close to those enemy when they retreated.
That is a rather "gamey" tactic, however, just to balance things a bit, your opponent seems equally upset that you attacked with killer stacks of 1,000 men. Massed stacking of regiments is something I personally never do... I got totally creamed in one PBEM HPS Campaign Gettysburg battle by a Confederate opponent who formed these massive brigade stacks of troops and just meleed through my lines like a panzer division. I personally play in what I see as a more historical fashion of maintaining continuous lines of no more than two regiments ever stacked in the same hex. Against huge stacks, this tactic stands no chance, despite it being more historical. My preferred house rule in the future would prohibit stacking more than two regiments or even limiting a stack to about 800 men total (unless a single unit was larger, of course).
This is why I'm a lousy gamer... no killer instinct and strictly following historical behaviors whenever possible to experience history rather than just to win.
Gamey tactics or not... I LOVE this AAR! It's just incredible how you pulled off that counterattack when it looked like you were being overrun! Hiding units out of sight in low spots... brilliant! Wish I could have seen it all in greater detail! [&o]
Signature? Maybe someday over the rainbow.
RE: They're OUR shoes DAMNIT!!!!!
Valkyrie,
It seems I spoke too quickly about those routed units. Now that I have a few routed units I can see that the game won't allow me to use them "closer" to enemy units so perhaps that is what happened with John. Of course once they HAVE unrouted he isn't rushing them back to friendly lines but, instead, is using them to push into my rear areas. Ah well, that's fine, I can hunt them down cheaply enough and one thing I've learnt is that unsupported units are dead meat in BG.
As to the gameyness of "massive stacks". Hmm, well John has hit me with a stack of 5 regiments once and broke into my lines at Apple Orchard with a stack of 3 regiments containing some 900+ troops. If its good for the goose then its good for the gander + I don't now much abotu ACW battle tactics and it just seems to me that if going into hand to hand combat it is only sensible to bring as many men along with you as possible whether in-game or in real life. I think the basic problem in the game is that there is a major discontinuity between the size of manoeuvre elements and an inability to split large regiments ( 800+ men ) to cover 2 hexes at 400 men/hex etc. Its a difficult juggling act but it does stick in the craw to be outmanoeuvred by 2 x 150 man regiments which proceed to trap your 800 man regiment and cut off its lines of retreat in a manner which really wouldn't happen IRL.
Veiji,
Aye, I agree with you that the breakdown of casualties is unrealistic. I also think the routing algorithm allows unrouting too quickly etc BUT overall I think that the operational outcomes in terms of troops removed is probably pretty spot on. It might have more troops surrender than really did but over the course of an attack I think the total number of troops on both sides rendered hors de combat is probably about right.
As to seeing the battle in more detail. John tells me he is posting screenshots so I think he probably provides a pretty good shot by shot, no? In case it wasn't clear his routing basically boiled down to a " 1, 2 punch".
1. Attack both flanks of his 6 regiment penetration of my lines with troops from XI Corps including several units from the low ground and other units ( in column formation ) which marched from FAR away over the course of a turn in order to unexpectedly bolster my numbers.
2. On the 2nd turn of the counter-attack I added in units which had been waiting in hiding and that Bde made the difference between disrupting the attack and crushing it.
The counter-attack itself was really nothing special. If anything was interesting about it it was the fact that I held my troops which were earmarked for the counter-attack in defensive positions and hiding such that it invited just this sort of attack. This counter-attack does seem to have broken his will and while he is pressing me still on my left the attack which was brewing on Cemetery Ridge appears to have been delayed ( and now that I have an entirely new division on-line at Cemetery Hill I doubt his attack can, at all, succeed ).
I think the picture below is self-explanatory. My reinforcing divisions are linking up ahead of The Two Tops and seeking to trap what looks like 1.5 to 2 Bdes behind my lines, Wadsworth is pulling back to Culp's Hill to prevent another short envelopement and I have created a 1 Bde reserve in the low ground between Culp's Hill and Cemetery Hill - the first time I've been able to create a reserve all battle.
Last thing: That red box shows an arty unit WAY out of range of anything. I've had a look at things and I think it might be that 70 hex range set of cannons the Rebels have. I foresee my infantry going to give it a visit sooner rather than later.
It seems I spoke too quickly about those routed units. Now that I have a few routed units I can see that the game won't allow me to use them "closer" to enemy units so perhaps that is what happened with John. Of course once they HAVE unrouted he isn't rushing them back to friendly lines but, instead, is using them to push into my rear areas. Ah well, that's fine, I can hunt them down cheaply enough and one thing I've learnt is that unsupported units are dead meat in BG.
As to the gameyness of "massive stacks". Hmm, well John has hit me with a stack of 5 regiments once and broke into my lines at Apple Orchard with a stack of 3 regiments containing some 900+ troops. If its good for the goose then its good for the gander + I don't now much abotu ACW battle tactics and it just seems to me that if going into hand to hand combat it is only sensible to bring as many men along with you as possible whether in-game or in real life. I think the basic problem in the game is that there is a major discontinuity between the size of manoeuvre elements and an inability to split large regiments ( 800+ men ) to cover 2 hexes at 400 men/hex etc. Its a difficult juggling act but it does stick in the craw to be outmanoeuvred by 2 x 150 man regiments which proceed to trap your 800 man regiment and cut off its lines of retreat in a manner which really wouldn't happen IRL.
Veiji,
Aye, I agree with you that the breakdown of casualties is unrealistic. I also think the routing algorithm allows unrouting too quickly etc BUT overall I think that the operational outcomes in terms of troops removed is probably pretty spot on. It might have more troops surrender than really did but over the course of an attack I think the total number of troops on both sides rendered hors de combat is probably about right.
As to seeing the battle in more detail. John tells me he is posting screenshots so I think he probably provides a pretty good shot by shot, no? In case it wasn't clear his routing basically boiled down to a " 1, 2 punch".
1. Attack both flanks of his 6 regiment penetration of my lines with troops from XI Corps including several units from the low ground and other units ( in column formation ) which marched from FAR away over the course of a turn in order to unexpectedly bolster my numbers.
2. On the 2nd turn of the counter-attack I added in units which had been waiting in hiding and that Bde made the difference between disrupting the attack and crushing it.
The counter-attack itself was really nothing special. If anything was interesting about it it was the fact that I held my troops which were earmarked for the counter-attack in defensive positions and hiding such that it invited just this sort of attack. This counter-attack does seem to have broken his will and while he is pressing me still on my left the attack which was brewing on Cemetery Ridge appears to have been delayed ( and now that I have an entirely new division on-line at Cemetery Hill I doubt his attack can, at all, succeed ).
I think the picture below is self-explanatory. My reinforcing divisions are linking up ahead of The Two Tops and seeking to trap what looks like 1.5 to 2 Bdes behind my lines, Wadsworth is pulling back to Culp's Hill to prevent another short envelopement and I have created a 1 Bde reserve in the low ground between Culp's Hill and Cemetery Hill - the first time I've been able to create a reserve all battle.
Last thing: That red box shows an arty unit WAY out of range of anything. I've had a look at things and I think it might be that 70 hex range set of cannons the Rebels have. I foresee my infantry going to give it a visit sooner rather than later
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John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: They're OUR shoes DAMNIT!!!!!
Well, things are continuing apace. John is continuing to advance past the Two Tops. He is swinging in towards my rear but I can't understand why he is doing this. I have 1 Division just 20 minutes from taking up strong blocking positions and another 1 Division + 1 Bde smashing through his rear defence on its way to Apple Hill.
He has about 1400 of my men trapped on Apple Hill but he only has about 40 minutes to destroy them or I'm going to just roll over him with my new division. If he pulled back from the Two Tops then he might have a chance of holding off 1st Div, III Corps but as it is he is holding it off with just half a division and my boys are going to attack him right from the march column, no deploying into line, no manoeuvring for good positions, just straight down the road as fast as they can move followed by a quick charge into hand to hand combat.
Elsewhere another Rebel division is trying to take advantage of my supposed weakness around the angle of my line east of Apple Hill ( where most of my troops are routed or disrupted ) by charging down from Seminary Ridge. Fair enough, I've deployed the reinforcing division, thinned the line facing Gettysburg just a little an extended the line westward to cover the "gap" the Rebs were making for. Now they face a full, contiguous line which will only grow stronger as my routed and disrupted troops recover and can be committed to battle again.
I have also moved my 1 Bde Reserve to the threatened area and hold it ready to charge any penetrations of my line with overwhelming force. ( The reserve is in the red box in covered ground which the enemy cannot see. It is behind the, intentionally, weakest portion of my line since I WANT to lure John there so that I can easily and quickly counter-attack him and force him back ruining his attack. )
All in all I just can't understand why he is pressing the attack when I've shown that I am able to collapse his positions relatively quickly once I have even numbers and I have superior numbers making for his rear. It just makes no sense IMO to risk these forces now on pell-mell attacks when a more considered attack tomorrow could benefit from these troops. If he loses them now he cripples himself for tomorrow.
He has about 1400 of my men trapped on Apple Hill but he only has about 40 minutes to destroy them or I'm going to just roll over him with my new division. If he pulled back from the Two Tops then he might have a chance of holding off 1st Div, III Corps but as it is he is holding it off with just half a division and my boys are going to attack him right from the march column, no deploying into line, no manoeuvring for good positions, just straight down the road as fast as they can move followed by a quick charge into hand to hand combat.
Elsewhere another Rebel division is trying to take advantage of my supposed weakness around the angle of my line east of Apple Hill ( where most of my troops are routed or disrupted ) by charging down from Seminary Ridge. Fair enough, I've deployed the reinforcing division, thinned the line facing Gettysburg just a little an extended the line westward to cover the "gap" the Rebs were making for. Now they face a full, contiguous line which will only grow stronger as my routed and disrupted troops recover and can be committed to battle again.
I have also moved my 1 Bde Reserve to the threatened area and hold it ready to charge any penetrations of my line with overwhelming force. ( The reserve is in the red box in covered ground which the enemy cannot see. It is behind the, intentionally, weakest portion of my line since I WANT to lure John there so that I can easily and quickly counter-attack him and force him back ruining his attack. )
All in all I just can't understand why he is pressing the attack when I've shown that I am able to collapse his positions relatively quickly once I have even numbers and I have superior numbers making for his rear. It just makes no sense IMO to risk these forces now on pell-mell attacks when a more considered attack tomorrow could benefit from these troops. If he loses them now he cripples himself for tomorrow.
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John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: They're OUR shoes DAMNIT!!!!!
Great battle, Nemo! 
What's the casualties and victory results so far?
What's the casualties and victory results so far?
RE: They're OUR shoes DAMNIT!!!!!
It looks like just uner 4,000 Union infantry and just under 2,000 cavalry lost vs 6,500 Rebel infantry and 200 cavalry. As far as I can see though this "draw" should be a win for me as I'm holding the important terrain and many of my losses have been Category D and E units. My A and B units are almost entirely intact... Pretty cold-blooded but that's life.
He's about to kill another 1,000 men trapped at Apple Orchard Hill where he manoeuvred routed rebel units behind my lines into position to prevent my guys retreating. Well, to be fair I can't say it was intentional really as sometimes there are very limited options as to where routed troops can go. Let's just say that the troops there got trapped and are about to be wiped out.
But he is about to find 6 of his regiments at Orchard Hill over-run by my reinforcing division and 2 divisions of troops are about to clear Weickert Forest ( facing, at most, 1 division of enemy troops ). So I think that the forces he inserted behind my lines are in a WORLD of hurt and he will be doing well if he can pull many of them out.
The big question now is whether he will try to hold Apple Hill or whether he will pull back and organise on the Seminary Ridge line. If I were him I'd hold Apple Hill although I'd be aware that come Day 2 that hill is going to be the target of almost every Union battery available and thus my casualties in remaining there will be very high.
At the end of Day 1 even taking into account the troops he will kill at Apple Hill and the guys I will kill at Weickert etc I think that we will come out of things pretty even and, for me, that's a clear win as my forces will be stronger on Day 2 than they were today so his best chance of victory is gone, IMO. I may be wrong though as I'm not sure how the reinforcements correlate tomorrow.
He's about to kill another 1,000 men trapped at Apple Orchard Hill where he manoeuvred routed rebel units behind my lines into position to prevent my guys retreating. Well, to be fair I can't say it was intentional really as sometimes there are very limited options as to where routed troops can go. Let's just say that the troops there got trapped and are about to be wiped out.
But he is about to find 6 of his regiments at Orchard Hill over-run by my reinforcing division and 2 divisions of troops are about to clear Weickert Forest ( facing, at most, 1 division of enemy troops ). So I think that the forces he inserted behind my lines are in a WORLD of hurt and he will be doing well if he can pull many of them out.
The big question now is whether he will try to hold Apple Hill or whether he will pull back and organise on the Seminary Ridge line. If I were him I'd hold Apple Hill although I'd be aware that come Day 2 that hill is going to be the target of almost every Union battery available and thus my casualties in remaining there will be very high.
At the end of Day 1 even taking into account the troops he will kill at Apple Hill and the guys I will kill at Weickert etc I think that we will come out of things pretty even and, for me, that's a clear win as my forces will be stronger on Day 2 than they were today so his best chance of victory is gone, IMO. I may be wrong though as I'm not sure how the reinforcements correlate tomorrow.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: They're OUR shoes DAMNIT!!!!!
You've done well for a novice (no offence), and really held back his big assault! Well done!
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nealjhebert
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:52 pm
RE: They're OUR shoes DAMNIT!!!!!
Finally managed to get registered, and wanted to say I'm enjoying both AAR's very much. I can't wait for the next round of turns to see what happens!
RE: They're OUR shoes DAMNIT!!!!!
Ashantai,
No worries. No point denying my utter newbieness in BG [8D].
Back to the battle:
Things are stabilising nicely with the counter-attack aimed at re-taking Peach Hill and then pushing on to Apple Hill going according to plan. The enemy has redeployed 7 Regiments to block this attack but in the last 20 minutes 4 of those regiments have been routed and another completely surrounded and annihilated. I have one uncommitted Bde which I am threatening to unleash on the rear of his troops on Apple Hill - I won't though as they can only rescue 800 men ( all that survives of the troops I had deployed there ) and I'd rather move a little more slowly but be safer as I really cannot afford to have 1st Division III Corps thrown back.
At Weickert Woods my division is deploying. 1 Bde has thrown back over 900 enemy troops in a melee assault while in march column, the 2nd Brigade is preparing to follow up next turn while the 3rd Brigade is sweeping down a nearby road to prevent an enemy outflanking move.
In the woods north of Weickert wood but south of Apple Hill I have roughly 1 Division moving through covered ground to threaten the other flank of Apple Hill - and threaten to completely cut off the enemy troops in Weickert Woods -. All in all I think his penetration to the Two Tops is finished and that his line will stabilise either ON Apple Hill ( but under severe pressure from my troops ) or along Seminary Ridge to the north of Apple Hill.
He also has a Cavalry Division around Sheep Hill and heading deeper for my rear. I think he thinks I haven't seen it but, in reality, I've set up a 1 Bde ambush along a ridgeline in my rear and should pull the teeth of this attack handily enough.
Overall the Union position is improving and right now it looks as if I'll hold more than the minimum I had required to hold by the end of Day 1. Since I've also inflicted a lot more casualties on the Rebels ( and really, really, savaged 2 divisions while spreading most of my losses across 4 divisions ) than they have inflicted on me I think that the Rebel attacks on Day 2 will be weaker than they otherwise might be. All in all, unless I'm missing something major, things are looking good.
Legend:
Dark Blue show melee attacks on the current turn.
Light Blue show the planned moves of my attacking forces next turn. As you can see there's a major threat her to cut off the Rebel troops south of Apple and Orchard Hill
No worries. No point denying my utter newbieness in BG [8D].
Back to the battle:
Things are stabilising nicely with the counter-attack aimed at re-taking Peach Hill and then pushing on to Apple Hill going according to plan. The enemy has redeployed 7 Regiments to block this attack but in the last 20 minutes 4 of those regiments have been routed and another completely surrounded and annihilated. I have one uncommitted Bde which I am threatening to unleash on the rear of his troops on Apple Hill - I won't though as they can only rescue 800 men ( all that survives of the troops I had deployed there ) and I'd rather move a little more slowly but be safer as I really cannot afford to have 1st Division III Corps thrown back.
At Weickert Woods my division is deploying. 1 Bde has thrown back over 900 enemy troops in a melee assault while in march column, the 2nd Brigade is preparing to follow up next turn while the 3rd Brigade is sweeping down a nearby road to prevent an enemy outflanking move.
In the woods north of Weickert wood but south of Apple Hill I have roughly 1 Division moving through covered ground to threaten the other flank of Apple Hill - and threaten to completely cut off the enemy troops in Weickert Woods -. All in all I think his penetration to the Two Tops is finished and that his line will stabilise either ON Apple Hill ( but under severe pressure from my troops ) or along Seminary Ridge to the north of Apple Hill.
He also has a Cavalry Division around Sheep Hill and heading deeper for my rear. I think he thinks I haven't seen it but, in reality, I've set up a 1 Bde ambush along a ridgeline in my rear and should pull the teeth of this attack handily enough.
Overall the Union position is improving and right now it looks as if I'll hold more than the minimum I had required to hold by the end of Day 1. Since I've also inflicted a lot more casualties on the Rebels ( and really, really, savaged 2 divisions while spreading most of my losses across 4 divisions ) than they have inflicted on me I think that the Rebel attacks on Day 2 will be weaker than they otherwise might be. All in all, unless I'm missing something major, things are looking good.
Legend:
Dark Blue show melee attacks on the current turn.
Light Blue show the planned moves of my attacking forces next turn. As you can see there's a major threat her to cut off the Rebel troops south of Apple and Orchard Hill
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John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: They're OUR shoes DAMNIT!!!!!
HiHi
Nemo this is a 'Just in case', very roughly, the significance of the red highlight on you units strength shows they are surrounded; disrupted and undisrupted units fire at 1/4 rate, if he melees against disrupted/undisrupted units it costs him 2 fatigue points, if all the units in the Hex are routed, then its an automatic wipeout and he looses no fatigue points.
All the Best
Peter
Nemo this is a 'Just in case', very roughly, the significance of the red highlight on you units strength shows they are surrounded; disrupted and undisrupted units fire at 1/4 rate, if he melees against disrupted/undisrupted units it costs him 2 fatigue points, if all the units in the Hex are routed, then its an automatic wipeout and he looses no fatigue points.
All the Best
Peter
RE: They're OUR shoes DAMNIT!!!!!
Kingmaker,
Aye, those units were always lost. Several thousand Rebel troops stood between my forces and this little group. I pushed to get through them "just in case" but 20 minutes from reconnecting with them from 2 directions the hold-outs were wiped out. C'est la guerre.
Right now it is 1840hrs. The Rebels are withdrawing from Weickert Woods under pressure from two of my Brigades while my reinforcing troops have decided that, in light of Rebel reinforcements arriving from behind their lines ( I can see 1 new Division just 40 minutes from Peach Hill with another division about 40 minutes behind them ). Given that this represents 2 new Divisions or, to put it another way, an entirely new Rebel Corps there's just no way I can withstand this so far forward.
So, I'm forming a contiguous line ( it is already formed from Cemetery Ridge all the way out to Peach Hill where it curves down along Weickert Wood just East of the Two Tops ) and protecting my routed regiments, filtering my disrupted and recovered units into the line and sorting out my Bdes so that they are no longer quite so polyglot.
Overall though I've held the line, I'm holding ground the Union lost on Day 1 in reality and Rebel casualties are a good bit higher than mine. All in all the position was VERY touch and go there for a while but I'm pretty happy with it now and will look to filter newly reinforcing units into the line, pull my high class ( A and B ) units out of the line so as to be able to form a useful counter-attack force and just wait and see what the Rebels throw at me.
A small part of me is tempted to attack through Gettysburg ( which I think is defended by, at most, 3 Bdes ) and while I think I could do them a lot of damage right now I don't think I have the excess force to create anything decisive out of that. I think I could force John to pull a division from his Right flank into Gettysburg which would help but I can probably just as easily withstand that division where it is currently being committed so, for now, I stand and wait --- well, apart from the Bde I have manouevring around behind his Leftmost Bde looking to smash him from behind and give him a little scare. I won't get decisively engaged but I do want to make him worried about his flanks when he's attacking so that he cannot always just assume that when HE is attacking he'll be the only one attacking.
Aye, those units were always lost. Several thousand Rebel troops stood between my forces and this little group. I pushed to get through them "just in case" but 20 minutes from reconnecting with them from 2 directions the hold-outs were wiped out. C'est la guerre.
Right now it is 1840hrs. The Rebels are withdrawing from Weickert Woods under pressure from two of my Brigades while my reinforcing troops have decided that, in light of Rebel reinforcements arriving from behind their lines ( I can see 1 new Division just 40 minutes from Peach Hill with another division about 40 minutes behind them ). Given that this represents 2 new Divisions or, to put it another way, an entirely new Rebel Corps there's just no way I can withstand this so far forward.
So, I'm forming a contiguous line ( it is already formed from Cemetery Ridge all the way out to Peach Hill where it curves down along Weickert Wood just East of the Two Tops ) and protecting my routed regiments, filtering my disrupted and recovered units into the line and sorting out my Bdes so that they are no longer quite so polyglot.
Overall though I've held the line, I'm holding ground the Union lost on Day 1 in reality and Rebel casualties are a good bit higher than mine. All in all the position was VERY touch and go there for a while but I'm pretty happy with it now and will look to filter newly reinforcing units into the line, pull my high class ( A and B ) units out of the line so as to be able to form a useful counter-attack force and just wait and see what the Rebels throw at me.
A small part of me is tempted to attack through Gettysburg ( which I think is defended by, at most, 3 Bdes ) and while I think I could do them a lot of damage right now I don't think I have the excess force to create anything decisive out of that. I think I could force John to pull a division from his Right flank into Gettysburg which would help but I can probably just as easily withstand that division where it is currently being committed so, for now, I stand and wait --- well, apart from the Bde I have manouevring around behind his Leftmost Bde looking to smash him from behind and give him a little scare. I won't get decisively engaged but I do want to make him worried about his flanks when he's attacking so that he cannot always just assume that when HE is attacking he'll be the only one attacking.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.