Soviet Pacific Fleet in the 20's

[Mike Carroll]

Is there a good source for the Soviet Pacific fleet as far as numbers and classes deployed in the mid-20's?

I am the first revision of my scenario and would like to add them in. Too give the Japanese a bigger incentive to give back Ohka-Sakalin. Have added some late game reinforcement to improve their army.

[Terminus]

There wasn't one. Naval Forces of the Far East were created in 1922, disbanded in 1926, and put under the command of the Frontier Troops. The Soviet Pacific Fleet didn't come into being again until 1935, and then only very slowly: the first small craft were delivered by way of the Transsiberian Railroad.

[Mike Carroll]

Alrighty then, no Soviet fleet[:D]

[Terminus]

Nice and simple, neh?

[Helpless]

Strictly speaking, Soviet Pacific Fleet HQ was formed on 1932. Fist subs (Shch(Ù) - class) were brought there by railway (7 subs by 1933). Afterwards they were built locally...

But yes, it is out of WPO and even WITP scope

[Terminus]

It's semantics, but the way I read it, Naval Forces of the Far East was reformed in 1932, and HQ of the Pacific Fleet not formed until 1935. Not strictly speaking very important.

[Helpless]

That's right.. i'm not trying to be picky here... http://www.fegi.ru/PRIMORYE/flot/flot1_11.htm

but don't we play alternative history game [;)]...

Some Baltic and Black Sea old russian tincans might appear in the Pacific in case of Japanese aggression. Don't speak about new ones ...

[KingMississippi]

What the heck does that page say Helpless? I cant read russian [:D].

[Rysyonok]

King,

it basically says that Soviet Navy was quickly building up in the Pacific in 1932-1941.

[Helpless]

Real hardcore WPO modder should know English/Japanese/Chinese/French and lately even Russian [:D]

[Mike Carroll]

Well perhaps I will put in a couple of subs and torpedo boats as reinforcements in 1929/1930. Assuming that the Soviets would take the Japanese more seriously in this alternate time-frame for the following reasons.

1. Higher level of aggression and expansion in Manchuria and China.
2. Keeping Ohka-Sakalin instead of giving it back in 1925.

Historically the Soviets started their first 5 year program to rebuild the navy in 1926 and later expanded the first program to include 30 or so subs and some destroyers in the Pacific (deployed in the early 30's). I do not think it stretches the imagination to have a flotilla of 12 torpedo boats, 12 coastal subs, and 12 longer range subs, a couple of Minesweepers and a minelayer start showing up in 1929 to the end of the scenario.

Now my Conway's 1906 to 1922 has not shown yet. But looking at 1922 to 1946, I think the Soviet Series I boats would be appropriate for the longer range subs. I will have to look at the shorter range coastal subs to come up with the older subs. Any suggestions would be good.

Again this is probably alot of work for nothing because with the Soviet 3rd Red Banner Army showing in 1929, the Japanese player would probably be wise to give Ohka-Sakalin back and keep the Soviets neutral. But I would like to give both players all the options and let them make the decision. I would assume that a limited Japanese offensive against the Soviet Union might put them in a position for an auto-victory. So there is an opportunity for the Japs to attack the Soviet Union with limited objectives.

If Vladivostoc is the Soviet fleet reinforcement point, what happens if it is taken? Is there some way I can specify alternative bases for reinforcements?

[Terminus]

Just define the base for the ship to appear; it only goes to Vlad if you don't tell it specifically to go elsewhere...

[Mike Carroll]

My concern is is Vladivostoc falls then where would the ship appear. Guess it would not matter without Vladivostoc no Pacific Fleet.[:D]

[Rysyonok]

ORIGINAL: Helpless
Real hardcore WPO modder should know English/Japanese/Chinese/French and lately even Russian [:D]

You mean both Soviet and Tsarist Russian

[Rysyonok]

ORIGINAL: Mike Carroll
My concern is is Vladivostoc falls then where would the ship appear. Guess it would not matter without Vladivostoc no Pacific Fleet.[:D]

You forget the northern route.

True, it's open only for a short time, and even then some ships may not make it. But Soviets were making a serious effort at using it - remember Tchkalov's flight over the Pole and Icebreaker Chelyuskin's trip.

The more aggressive you make Japan, the more powerful USSR becomes as European powers ease up on their economic and technological blockade...

How much do you want to bend history?

[Mike Carroll]

ORIGINAL: Rysyonok
How much do you want to bend history?

Well that is the $64,000 question[:D]

In my alternate reality the situation in the Pacific is a little bit different. Okha-Sakalin is still in Japanese hands and the Soviets really want some interest in the Manchurian railroad (historical). I believe that Japan would have been viewed with a bit more apprehension than in reality. This would mean a repositioning of some of their assets to the Pacific. Also in my scenario Ohka-Sakalin has about 25% of the fuel production in the Japanese Islands area. It is a significant fuel source.

My scenario has the Soviets becoming active in 1929 UNLESS the Japanese abandon Ohkha-Sakalin and allow the Soviets to land and take the base. The only problem is that currently the Soviets are really not too much of a military threat. So I decided to change that in the following ways. Version 1.1 of the scenario will have the following Soviet forces added to the OOB and reinforcement schedule.

1. 3rd Red Banner Army added as a reinforcement in 1929 (5 rifle divisions, 3 cavalry divisions, 2 hvy arty and 3 light arty regiments). This is a significant force which the Allied player can use to threaten Manchuria. (Also remember the Chinese Republic will be heavily reinforced as well by this time)

2. Added two subs to Vladivostoc and 22 additional subs added to the reinforcement schedule. These are roughly 12 coastal defense boats of very limited endurance and 12 newer Series I subs.

3. I added 4 torpedo boats with 6 more as reinforcements.

4. I added one sub tender.

I think these are supportable additions. The Soviets had a very basic Navy, but had started an expansion program in 1925. Even in this timeline it would not be until the late 30's that any significant warships would be moved to this theatre. The troops represent the forces released for a war with Japan from other theatres.

Would appreciate some feedback, is it too much? Too little? Ok?