Putting It On The Shelf (For Now)

[tgb]

Well, I'm going to set this aside until it is finished. I'm tired of fighting the interface and flying by the seat of my pants, with no clue of what to do or how to do it.

I can understand the bugs, they can be squashed, but to release a $50 game of this complexity with no manual is inexcusable.

I'm not asking for a refund, because I can still see the potential, but with two jobs, a wife, and several excellent new releases on my HD, I don't have the time or patience to figure it out on my own, or by having to post a question here every 15 minutes.

I'm hoping when the manual is finally released, it will be clear, concise, and have thorough explanations of all aspects of what could be a wonderful game, but right now there just is no way to tell.

[06 Maestro]

I'm downloading the board game rules right now. Those are suppose to cover about 90% of the digital game. I will humor myself with these rules for a while.

I hear ya though.

[cdbeck]

I have heard the board game rules were also nigh unreadable to most. I am disappointed with how this turned out and certainly glad that I did not fork over the cash at release. That being said, the game is on my Christmas list, and I am reticent to remove it, as I think there is a good amount of potential within the game. For the most part, the major flaws seem to be technical bugs and a general lack of feedback and documentation. These seem to be fixable, although it will take the AGEOD group some hard work to do so (and hopefully they won't just take the refund as a way to cut their losses and run, but this is not characteristic of the AGEOD group). BoA2 had some glaring problems at release, and it was quickly patched.

The whole "expect the customer to know the boardgame rules" bit is painful to me. This is the same reason why I just couldn't play Empire in Arms, despite the fact that I was super excited about it and paid full price upon release. That game was poorly documented, had little or no feedback, and like WWI, suffered for it. I am very afraid that World on Fire will be the same way, as it is a board game conversion (and some of the EiA people are involved in it). Sure, I know that these games are complicated, but if something is written out in a board game manual that needs to be known in the digital version, then write it out in the digital manual. Honestly, the old Civilization games were way less complicated than something like EiA, World on Fire, and probably WWI, yet we get 50 or so pages for those and a huge 200+ manual for the Civ games?

I think Conquest of the Agean should be the gold standard for wargaming manual. That game has a beginners guide/tutorial manual (which is several pages long, I think around 20-30 or more) and a huge actual manual that has diagrams on how to set up nearly every type of move and attack, and details just exactly what each of these moves and attacks does. I may find their games a tad overly complex, but I also tip my hat to the Crown of Glory and Forge of Freedom manuals, which are huge, and as highly detailed as the games are - in fact, if I could actually read one from cover to cover (which is hard with their size and complexity) the game's themselves would be easier. I think it is a strange affair when Gary Grigsby's World at War, which I consider on of the least complicated wargames out there (that does not mean - least fun, BTW), has a more detailed, clear, and longer manual than some of its way more complicated counterparts. Just because something is hard, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Write out the manuals and fix the UI's, 90% of the problems in wargaming come from these two elements.

SoM

[wosung]

Yes. boardgame rules are not always easy to digest in our less-textual world.

My main problem with boardgame conversions are strict (sub-)phases forcing you to do things in a certain order. This is only managable as a rule lawyer or with lot of save games.

The good thing is: Ageod and programmer Calvinus are very dedicated providing online help with rule questions.

http://www.ageod.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11524


Phil Thibaut is writing a rule book for the conversion:

"Manual is a long and cumbersome task. I am on it almost full time. The problem is that the guy who was supposed to do it failed us, and I have to restart everything from scrap...almost"
http://www.ageod.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11709


You mean World in Flames? It is a complex game. But programmer Steve is very much focused on ingame help, like in the tutorials:

tm.asp?m=1513814

Regards

[tgb]

I took a shot at reading the board game rules. They made my eyes bleed.

[JudgeDredd]

Manuals are a must for a computer wargame and it is diabolical that they are released with little in the way of letting the user know how to play the game. Unforgivable.

A manual is an absolute must.

Also as SoM mentioned, COTA should be the standard to aim for. That company (Panther Games) went all out to make sure everything was documented...absolutely everything, pictures and all. Forge of Freedom is another one...excellent manual although it may have suffered slightly (some things may have been left out, I don't know...I certainly didn't notice the absence of anything crucial) in the fact it was a printed manual and therefore limited to 200 pages because of DVD case sizes. But still a comprehensive read.

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort


I think Conquest of the Agean should be the gold standard for wargaming manual. That game has a beginners guide/tutorial manual (which is several pages long, I think around 20-30 or more) and a huge actual manual that has diagrams on how to set up nearly every type of move and attack, and details just exactly what each of these moves and attacks does.
SoM

Agreed totaly. Other developers could learn a thing or two from Panther Games.

[MarkShot]

Isn't someone going to mention "COTA: MarkShot's Top Tips"; the last word on how to roll up the enemy? Or the 300 pages of HTTR & COTA mini-guides. Between 500 pages of manuals and 300 pages online, there is enough to keep you reading six months before giving on order!

[JudgeDredd]

lmao. Markshot...where the hell have you been?? Trust you to return just when no-one mentions your walkthrough!! [:D]

Welcome back (if indeed you've been away!)

[MarkShot]

I always buzz the tower when least expected.

I must admit to having not been involved with BFTB like I was HTTR and COTA. Life just closed in on me after the COTA Patch #2 (the AI aggression patch). But I have no doubt Dave will do it again. He's a perfectionist who pours himself into the mechanics of simulation. Believe it or not, I've never really felt Dave spends a lot of time thinking about "game design". However, it just turns out that when he captures the reality of the weighty problems of command and operations, the final result is one h*ll of a strategy game!

[cdbeck]

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

Isn't someone going to mention "COTA: MarkShot's Top Tips"; the last word on how to roll up the enemy? Or the 300 pages of HTTR & COTA mini-guides. Between 500 pages of manuals and 300 pages online, there is enough to keep you reading six months before giving on order!

Actually, Markshot, I meant your guide when I said COTA came with a "beginner's guide/tutorial." You will have to forgive me for not mentioning your name, because it was so professionally written that my mind just melded into the rest of the "official" game manual! [;)]

SoM

[oldspec4]

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

Isn't someone going to mention "COTA: MarkShot's Top Tips"; the last word on how to roll up the enemy? Or the 300 pages of HTTR & COTA mini-guides. Between 500 pages of manuals and 300 pages online, there is enough to keep you reading six months before giving on order!

Yep, some of the best documentation I've come across in the gaming world [8D]

[MarkShot]

I actually have another Game Guide thread going for what I consider to be one of the best strategy games of all time, 1830. Over at the www.wargamer.com . If you consider, business to be war by non-violent means ... well then, it's warfare at its best! (10 thread pages with lots of screens)

http://www.wargamer.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=307087

[MarkShot]

The two tutorials were actually Dave's work. The checkpoint files which deployed with the game and the patches were I believe both Dave and Eddy. I did the Top Tips and Planning Check List along with the online Mini-Guides. Eddy helped me turn those two Mini-Guides into two PDFs totalling 300 pages. Also, we should remember Ugo who helped recover the HTTR guides by hand after the Great Matrix Forum Hacking Fiasco of 2003.

My contribution to the documentation set (not the SM and MM manuals) was to read through them and nit pick. Amazing to actually find out how the game works after playing all those years!