Fatal Years 1.04

[Chilperic]

Any good boardgame has atest phase lasting several months, with games played several times.In the computer field, this pahse is too often reduced to a couple weeks or months.

Of course, there are drastic business constraints ,as a computer program needs much more time to be built, at higher cost.

However, there are too the side effects of the "90 parameters by unit" trend: such a complexity is adding its full load of bugs, inconsistancies more abstarct and simple rules would avoid. Lei it be clear: a 1,680 turn game isn't testable. You may remove bugs, CTDs. In the end, blance and gameplay aren't, even for very large companies. Even with a very fast turn resolution, such monsters are more the pet work of people wanting to create an engine, not a game. they believe a game is an engine, and they're wrong.

FY has to share this trouble. The game is longer than a boardgame, with more details to assess. AGE 2.0 is certainly the highest which can be mastered and it's fair to recognize its bunch of features allows to solve many shortcoming in gameplay and simulation. Maybe only with free modding way, as the cost of such a fine tuning is too much for a commercial company.

The AGE 2.0 engine exists, so it would be silly to not use it [;)]. I remain convinced however there are other designs type which could be both profitable and enjoyable in computer wargaming field than the race to Behemoth we're living.

FY isn't perfect. I hope it will be in the future [:)]

[JJKettunen]

ORIGINAL: Chliperic
However, there are too the side effects of the "90 parameters by unit" trend: such a complexity is adding its full load of bugs, inconsistancies more abstarct and simple rules would avoid.

Sounds like WitE to me...

[Nikel]

ORIGINAL: Chliperic

nah. There are in computer strategy market 4 sorts of players:

- those moved by nationalism, wanting to play their nations and reverse history (1)
- those wanting to play an alternative history like a Turtledove novel (2)
- those interested really in strategy (3)
- those loving monster games because they grants for sure details mean complexity and strategy(4)

1 and 2 are the largest groups. 4 is a dominant subspecies in computer strategy market, vocalizing much when the vast majority of players, having less time to play, are less present on the boards.

4 is the tiniest of the 4.

Any pure wargame with PON problems would have been fully forgotten now. Thansk to the 1, 2 and 4 categories, a small core of players is yet active. Until the next game.

In my case the interest in wargames comes together with the interest in military history. I have played with soldiers since I can remember, plastic, cards,... and the interest in the campaigns of Alexander the Great, Napoleon,... was also there.

To be interested in computer wargames as an adult is logical. I have also switched from tactical to strategical.

I think that the clue is feeling like a real military commander. To feel this way while playing a game, even just for a moment, is worthy enough [:)]

[berto]

ORIGINAL: Chliperic

FY isn't perfect. I hope it will be in the future [:)]

When my AGElint QA/bug checking software is Ready for Prime Time (give me a few more weeks), after I release it publicly (as a community project) and we apply it to RUS/FY, especially together with your AI modding expertise, I believe that RUS/FY will be, if not "perfect", pretty d@mned good. [;)]

[JJKettunen]

Clovis, are you familiar with Advanced Tactics Gold? The name isn't very good because it is a game engine for operational and strategical level. It is very adaptive (I own it so I know). If one had enough time and energy I believe one could even reproduce Triumph of Chaos with it.

Check this design here (see the action cards): tm.asp?m=2842432

[Chilperic]

ORIGINAL: Keke

Clovis, are you familiar with Advanced Tactics Gold? The name isn't very good because it is a game engine for operational and strategical level. It is very adaptive (I own it so I know). If one had enough time and energy I believe one could even reproduce Triumph of Chaos with it.

Check this design here (see the action cards): tm.asp?m=2842432

Yes, got it but I haven't yetreally dig into. I've played Vic other game about Poland 39 ( not yet France 40) but i was rather pleased with the system. After SVF and DNO, I will certainly really try it. I'm wrongly or not considering ATG more suite fro 1940 and beyond period but I must admit I didn't entred the ATG forum since a few months [8|]

[JJKettunen]

I don't see a problem with pre 1940 scenarios. There are even acient war scens designed with it.

What it lacks is the real strength of computer wargames: simultaneous execution aka. wego-system...

[Chilperic]

For this time, dasagreeing on you to both points: having a scneario done by someone on an engine doesn't prove the engine is suited for the period. I remember tOAW adapted to anything [:D] That doesn't imply ATG isn't bale to handle ancients time, I just don't known by lack of knowledge.

Wego: yes...and no. TBS is sometimes as much suited than wego : first WW1 doesn't need wego, and I could add other XIXth Centuries periods, including RUS and AACW. Once again, TBS aren't on the contrarysuperior to wego. All depends on the rules, the scale. Let's take the PON example....[:D]

Frankly, they should have done PON with TBS, they would have had 1,680 *8 turns. More than 10,000 turns. What a feature [:D]

[JJKettunen]

ORIGINAL: Chliperic

For this time, dasagreeing on you to both points: having a scneario done by someone on an engine doesn't prove the engine is suited for the period. I remember tOAW adapted to anything [:D] That doesn't imply ATG isn't bale to handle ancients time, I just don't known by lack of knowledge.

That is true, and I haven't checked any of the scens of earlier periods, but I do know that ATG is much, much more flexible than TOAW: basically everything is editable. So I see no reason why a scen of acient times or a sci-fi scen wouldn't work as long as it was properly designed.

ORIGINAL: Chliperic
Wego: yes...and no. TBS is sometimes as much suited than wego : first WW1 doesn't need wego, and I could add other XIXth Centuries periods, including RUS and AACW. Once again, TBS aren't on the contrarysuperior to wego. All depends on the rules, the scale.

It may be my personal preference only but I do think that wego can add another layer of chaos, and feels more realistic. All depending on solid basic design, of course.

[Chilperic]

ORIGINAL: Keke

ORIGINAL: Chliperic

For this time, dasagreeing on you to both points: having a scneario done by someone on an engine doesn't prove the engine is suited for the period. I remember tOAW adapted to anything [:D] That doesn't imply ATG isn't bale to handle ancients time, I just don't known by lack of knowledge.

That is true, and I haven't checked any of the scens of earlier periods, but I do know that ATG is much, much more flexible than TOAW: basically everything is editable. So I see no reason why a scen of acient times or a sci-fi scen wouldn't work as long as it was properly designed.

So,it could become really interesting. One of my pet dream is porting to computer Roman war using some of the Miranda's design ideas in the Trajan system (not for tomorrow). There could be a choice between 2 engines , that would be great.[:)]

[Chilperic]

Playing Red side in FY may seem easier than siding with Whites at first glance.



After all, you have at your disposal a central position and sheer mass of men and weapons: 6 requisitions and 6 conscriptions delivering more than the White Regional policies:





Here the results of a full use of 6 requisitions and 6 conscriptions. A whole lot of new divisions to hammer Whites.



Let’s add several options to your disposal , like propaganda to rise NM,and the game seems easy indeed.



FY has tried to reflect the flaws who hampered the Red war effort. beyond mediocre leaders in general, like in the official version, your units will begin at very low cohesion levels, forcing you to get a large numerical superiority, especially against Southern Whites and Polish seasoned armies.



Let’s add you will have to win before the end of 1920, as Whites will receive from this years VPs each turn. You will be under menace of Allied full scale intervention, Finland involvement, and Green rising revolts as you will use the Regional policies to get your massive armies.



So one of your goal will be , as in reality, to create a core of experienced troops , to be used on crucial points. They will come from XP earned into battles and of course use of the Trotsky military reform, even if at first, this option will have negative consequences on your NM.
During the first year,you will have both to be cautious and aggressive. main choices must be done: Siberians or Southern Whites? Southern Whites are tougher but their territorial tenure is so small at start they may seem a valuable objective, when Siberians are so prone to decay by their internal dissensions. However, as long Siberians are controlling Samara and Kolchak isn’t in power, Green loyalty may rise in your areas, increasing revolt risk after.



The second great choice is the strategy in Baltic area. More later

[berto]

ORIGINAL: Keke

... but I do know that ATG is much, much more flexible than TOAW: basically everything is editable ...

To the best of your knowledge, has anybody done any quality ATG mods for WW2 Pacific Theater? (Showing my ATG ignorance here. I know next to nothing about the game.)

WW2 Pacific Theater scens are just about all I ever played with TOAW.

After ~15 years and having purchased every TOAW version ever sold, I gave up on TOAW with the release of TOAW v3.4 several months ago. TOAW 3.4 -- what an underwhelming disappointment. TOAW is nearly at a dead-end, and has little future. I'm outta there...

[Chilperic]

November 18: my NM is 88. White AI has chosen to use the option to recruit among my deserting troops:



The system is abstract as there are no command for switch sides for a unit. Some of my units have suffered attrition and one of the White factions has got conscripts. But that’s another reason in FY to keep NM high

[Chilperic]

ORIGINAL: berto

ORIGINAL: Keke

... but I do know that ATG is much, much more flexible than TOAW: basically everything is editable ...

To the best of your knowledge, has anybody done any quality ATG mods for WW2 Pacific Theater? (Showing my ATG ignorance here. I know next to nothing about the game.)

WW2 Pacific Theater scens are just about all I ever played with TOAW.

After ~15 years and having purchased every TOAW version ever sold, I gave up on TOAW with the release of TOAW v3.4 several months ago. TOAW 3.4 -- what an underwhelming disappointment. TOAW is nearly at a dead-end, and has little future. I'm outta there...

TOAW worked best for 10 to 20 Km/hexes scenarios depicting one operation to the Soviet doctrinal definition of this term ( see Glantz for longer explanations[:D]). TOAW has always been clumsy because this operational game emphasized tactical features, with divisions built from squad and vehicles database) and oversimplified key operational features like supply. But when it wa sreleased, circa 1999 (?), the computer wargaming market was dying and so it was the very rare one allowing to build scenarios. This creativity has given a few gems and many curious ones.

The recent versions has always seemed me a good alternative, if and only if it was yet the only one engine. That's not the case, and even editable databases don't convince me I should go back to the point to decide if the 3rd Panzerjager battalion should have 10 or 25 Kubelwagen, considering 25 increase speed of the battalion by 1 [:D]

[Chilperic]

BTW, to which category this PON player is belonging? [:D]

I really appreciate the new F11 listing of economic structures, especially the calculation of "margin". I've been keeping track of all this until now using an Excel spreadsheet, at a cost of at least 15 minutes per turn. Now I can concentrate on making war, and spend less time making my citizens and capitalists happy!

Excel is definitively the AGE tool. [;)]

[Chilperic]

New FY version tonight. No new features, but some fixes to events and fix for the Northern Caucasus supply situation at start. Reds have too much supplies in this area at start, when the scarce resources were coming from Tzaritsyn and Astrakhan. However, as supply depots are creating supply in AGE engine, the presence of supply depots at Ekaterinodar and Grozny were allowing gamey tactics, like concentration of all Red forces at Ekaterinodar, checking southern White AI and even I guess Southern White player.

Now, the only Red depot will be loceated at Grozny and it will be only at level 1 rather than 4. Ekaeterinodar supply depot is removed and Reds get 2 more supply wagons at Ekaerinodar at start. Moreover, if Reds are building in the first months a supply depot at Ekaterinodar, some Reds units will desert ( balance feature, but stockpiling supply when your troops are lacking anything isn't that good for morale, no ?[:)] ).

[gamer78]

ORIGINAL: Chliperic

BTW, to which category this PON player is belonging? [:D]

A happy player,citizen that likes to manage margin with all "strategic means" with all the tools available with less concerns in other parts.

[gamer78]

ORIGINAL: Chliperic

New FY version tonight. No new features, but some fixes to events and fix for the Northern Caucasus supply situation at start. Reds have too much supplies in this area at start, when the scarce resources were coming from Tzaritsyn and Astrakhan. However, as supply depots are creating supply in AGE engine, the presence of supply depots at Ekaterinodar and Grozny were allowing gamey tactics, like concentration of all Red forces at Ekaterinodar, checking southern White AI and even I guess Southern White player.

Now, the only Red depot will be loceated at Grozny and it will be only at level 1 rather than 4. Ekaeterinodar supply depot is removed and Reds get 2 more supply wagons at Ekaerinodar at start. Moreover, if Reds are building in the first months a supply depot at Ekaterinodar, some Reds units will desert ( balance feature, but stockpiling supply when your troops are lacking anything isn't that good for morale, no ?[:)] ).

It is a good idea, AI is definetely better than stock game AI about not to get encircled or march deep and get out of supply in deeper Don. But as long as Red forces are combined and dig in, It is actually difficult for Southern whites to have succesfull offensive to Ekaerinodar. In my games they actually also manage to capture it. But after ammo bug be fixed I think it will have impact on most fronts for battles.

[Chilperic]

ORIGINAL: Baris

ORIGINAL: Chliperic

New FY version tonight. No new features, but some fixes to events and fix for the Northern Caucasus supply situation at start. Reds have too much supplies in this area at start, when the scarce resources were coming from Tzaritsyn and Astrakhan. However, as supply depots are creating supply in AGE engine, the presence of supply depots at Ekaterinodar and Grozny were allowing gamey tactics, like concentration of all Red forces at Ekaterinodar, checking southern White AI and even I guess Southern White player.

Now, the only Red depot will be loceated at Grozny and it will be only at level 1 rather than 4. Ekaeterinodar supply depot is removed and Reds get 2 more supply wagons at Ekaerinodar at start. Moreover, if Reds are building in the first months a supply depot at Ekaterinodar, some Reds units will desert ( balance feature, but stockpiling supply when your troops are lacking anything isn't that good for morale, no ?[:)] ).

It is a good idea, AI is definetely better than stock game AI about not to get encircled or march deep and get out of supply in deeper Don. But as long as Red forces are combined and dig in, It is actually difficult for Southern whites to have succesfull offensive to Ekaerinodar. In my games they actually also manage to capture it. But after ammo bug be fixed I think it will have impact on most fronts for battles.

After a more test, I have scraped the 2 more supply wagons. At start, Reds have a stockpile at Ekaterinodar, so they will have to live with or keep supply coming from Tzaritsyn.

Reds will get too some divisions on the German front at start( Smolensk and Novgorod). They were part of the screen forces Bonch-Bruevich was creating aginst Germany. Part were used on Lenin order to reinforce Volga in July and August 18.

I will maybe adding adding a new Red economic option: Bagmen. Black market was flourishing in Sovpedia and Communists oscillated between repression and tolerance. Repression was in part due to the collapse menace bagmen were posing to the crumbling railway system, essential for Red military effort. So the option tolerate bagmen would lower railways capacity, NM and VP against a slight boost in loyalty, a few money and WSU. Not sure for this version.

[Chilperic]

New version uploaded on my blog( see my sig).

Removes Ekaterinodar supply depot
Adds some Red divisions at Smolensk and Novgorod
minor fixes on 2 events