Bundling Kharkov + AtDII for 20 bucks more and giving in return $20,- rabate to owners of the predecessor had led to less debates and altogether higher revenue. Like SSG handled it now, it's a psychological barrier for everybody interested in the latter title, because he has to do acquire two games, and it also leaves a stale taste for players hoping for a cheaper expansion. Yes, AtD is worth the extra price, but many potential customers probably won't give it a chance due to aforementioned reasons.
Price
RE: Price
ORIGINAL: jeffreys
[font="Times New Roman"] Consequently the preceeding game became somewhat out of date, so that by now there are 4 different older game engines, all of them significantly different from the current Kharkov engine. [/font]
so what difference does it make? If I didn't buy the original game, it is because I didn't want to play it, so whether it is out of date or not is relevant only to those who already own the previous game, b ut not to me.
Henri
RE: Price
ORIGINAL: jmlima
You do not get a complete game in Across the Dnepr. You get an expansion that requires another game to be played. And this, for a price nearing the full game.
There was once a game named Advanced Squad Leader and Avalon Hill used the same business model.
The game was so popular that some players bought every expansion!
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e_barkmann
- Posts: 1292
- Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Adelaide, Australia
RE: Price
still a sucker for ASL - it's a lifestyle :-/
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mariovalleemtl
- Posts: 361
- Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Montreal
- Contact:
RE: Price
Maybe I should go on www.ferrari.com/ and tell then there car are to expansive. Hope they could do somethink to.
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jeffreysutro@jeffreysutro.com
- Posts: 138
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:06 am
RE: Price
[font="Times New Roman"]Though I didn't mention it in my previous post (which was getting far too long) it is certainly true that for the buyer who is only interested in the one battle/campaign contained in Across the Dneper a stand alone game would have been better. For the more "hard core" fans of the "Decisive Battles" series the single core engine with a choice of expansions is decidedly superior. It is also cheaper, since a stand alone game would be priced significantly higher then the expansions, probably at least $60. Of course then people would be complaining (as was the case when Kharkov was released) that the price was too high for "one single scenerio" [:)] (though it is actually a single battle with a number of "what if" variants included; the sort of thing that most companies would probably refer to as seperate scenerios).
I will note that if the current SSG system had been instituted at the time they released Battles in Normandy and subsequent games they would now have a single gaming system with 5 or so seperate additional battles avialable, all of which would be current and up to date and still producing revenue for SSG. That might even allow them to sell them at lower prices, since volume would be higher, and all the products would be producing an ongoing revenue stream. Ah well, better late than never. [;)] [8|]
As an aside, I'm curious if Tiller has improved his AIs in his current products. My only exposure to them was playing the old Talonsoft game Battleground Gettysburg, which I believe was a Tiller game (please correct me if I'm wrong). The AI in that game was so bad that I stopped playing it despite the fact that it was otherwise an excellent game. That was 15 years ago however, so it seems to me likely that he's improved his AIs since then. The quality of the AI is quite important to me in considering the purchase of any game since my schedule, and my short attention span, mean that I only play against the AI. [/font]
I will note that if the current SSG system had been instituted at the time they released Battles in Normandy and subsequent games they would now have a single gaming system with 5 or so seperate additional battles avialable, all of which would be current and up to date and still producing revenue for SSG. That might even allow them to sell them at lower prices, since volume would be higher, and all the products would be producing an ongoing revenue stream. Ah well, better late than never. [;)] [8|]
As an aside, I'm curious if Tiller has improved his AIs in his current products. My only exposure to them was playing the old Talonsoft game Battleground Gettysburg, which I believe was a Tiller game (please correct me if I'm wrong). The AI in that game was so bad that I stopped playing it despite the fact that it was otherwise an excellent game. That was 15 years ago however, so it seems to me likely that he's improved his AIs since then. The quality of the AI is quite important to me in considering the purchase of any game since my schedule, and my short attention span, mean that I only play against the AI. [/font]
All My Best,
Jeff Sutro
Jeff Sutro
RE: Price
The Tiller Games (at least all the ones following Smolensk) have been upgraded to the latest engine, with ijmproved AI and features.
FWIW I finally relented today and bought AtD2, after having bought Kharkov 2 days ago, somewhat justifying the Matrix policy (but not everyone can afford to buy all the games I buy).
I have bought Battles in Normandy and never played it (except maybe for looking at the setup), I bought Korsun and never played it (but I did play AtD a lot, which is probably why I bought Korsun), I bought Battles in Italy and never played it except for a few moves from Husky and the free Typhoon scenario. The same goes for most of the Tiller games - I bought them and except for Smolensk, never played them.
Maybe I am not a typical wargamer, despite having been at it since the early sixties, but the reason I don't play most of those games much is mostly because I prefer battles of maneuver over slugfests with mostly fixed front lines or battles of attrition. So although Korsun Pocket is a battle of encirclement, it is mostly a slugfest which doesn't jibe well with my preferences. This is also why I liked Tiller's Smolensk and the original AtD so much. The fact that AH's The Russian Campaign was by far the all-time favorite board wargame of all wargamers indicates that I am not alone.And it may have something to do with my being a chess player, where "the threat is more dangerous than its realization".
So it is unclear where Kharkov will fit in this scheme of things: it is a back-and-forth game where both sides are fighting against time, and there may be some amount of maneuvering, but on the other hand fixed areas of operation may reduce this freedom somewhat.We will see...
Henri
PS. There is a story about World Chess Champion Emmanuel Lasker, where he put an unlit cigar into his mouth during a tournament, and his opponent called the tournament director to complain, so Lasker put it away. A few minutes later, he took it out again and put it into his mouth, so his opponent called the tournament director again. "But the cigar is not lit", said the tournament director, "so he is not smoking". "No, replied the opponent, but he is THREATENING to light it, and in chess the threat is more dangerous than its realization!"
FWIW I finally relented today and bought AtD2, after having bought Kharkov 2 days ago, somewhat justifying the Matrix policy (but not everyone can afford to buy all the games I buy).
I have bought Battles in Normandy and never played it (except maybe for looking at the setup), I bought Korsun and never played it (but I did play AtD a lot, which is probably why I bought Korsun), I bought Battles in Italy and never played it except for a few moves from Husky and the free Typhoon scenario. The same goes for most of the Tiller games - I bought them and except for Smolensk, never played them.
Maybe I am not a typical wargamer, despite having been at it since the early sixties, but the reason I don't play most of those games much is mostly because I prefer battles of maneuver over slugfests with mostly fixed front lines or battles of attrition. So although Korsun Pocket is a battle of encirclement, it is mostly a slugfest which doesn't jibe well with my preferences. This is also why I liked Tiller's Smolensk and the original AtD so much. The fact that AH's The Russian Campaign was by far the all-time favorite board wargame of all wargamers indicates that I am not alone.And it may have something to do with my being a chess player, where "the threat is more dangerous than its realization".
So it is unclear where Kharkov will fit in this scheme of things: it is a back-and-forth game where both sides are fighting against time, and there may be some amount of maneuvering, but on the other hand fixed areas of operation may reduce this freedom somewhat.We will see...
Henri
PS. There is a story about World Chess Champion Emmanuel Lasker, where he put an unlit cigar into his mouth during a tournament, and his opponent called the tournament director to complain, so Lasker put it away. A few minutes later, he took it out again and put it into his mouth, so his opponent called the tournament director again. "But the cigar is not lit", said the tournament director, "so he is not smoking". "No, replied the opponent, but he is THREATENING to light it, and in chess the threat is more dangerous than its realization!"
RE: Price
ORIGINAL: Joe 98There was once a game named Advanced Squad Leader and Avalon Hill used the same business model.ORIGINAL: jmlima
You do not get a complete game in Across the Dnepr. You get an expansion that requires another game to be played. And this, for a price nearing the full game.
The game was so popular that some players bought every expansion!
And there is now a game called ATS whose every historical module is a stand alone game , within a system. So what?
(BTW, didn't Avalon Hill close?... I wonder if it was their visionary business model...)
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Challerain
- Posts: 269
- Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2001 8:00 am
- Location: Mansfield, Texas
RE: Price
No, it was the publishing side of their parent company and some bad magazines that forced Monarch Avalon out of business.
And with ATS don't you need rules which do not come with the modules?
Apples to oranges, but Bioware's new RPG, Dragon Age, was released in November for 49.99. The first expansion came out a few weeks ago for 39.99 and it was far shorter.
And even more apples to oranges, people put out lots of money for a boardgame that covers only one battle......
And with ATS don't you need rules which do not come with the modules?
Apples to oranges, but Bioware's new RPG, Dragon Age, was released in November for 49.99. The first expansion came out a few weeks ago for 39.99 and it was far shorter.
And even more apples to oranges, people put out lots of money for a boardgame that covers only one battle......
RE: Price
Hi all,
I have been a long time Matrix customer and this subject has brought me out of my (silent) lurker hole. As much as I want SSG and Matrixgames to live long and prosperous, I have to say that I really feel like a fool right now.
When I bought Kharkov, It was as much an attempt to support SSG as everybody else. However, I also noticed that I was entitled to a discount on the AtD2, when the time came. That promise made me purchase the game. And now, I see that the promise is not fulfilled. That is legally wrong, and commercially a potential disaster. For me, I probably will not buy AtD2 anyway. However, I would not have bought Kharkov without the promise of a discount for AtD2 either.
What should Matrix do about it? Well, If we make the assumption that a normal discount for a Matrix game is 25%, that means that AtD2 should have been discounted by 10§. I would expect Matrix to reimburse all original Kharkov customers, who have already bought AtD2, with 10§, as well as offering AtD2 at a discount 25% to anybody who can prove a prior ownership of Kharkov.
This solution will prove to all that Matrix will stand by their promises (SSG's promise of a discount is legally Matrix's promise), as well as give me a good reason to purchase AtD2.
Jens
I have been a long time Matrix customer and this subject has brought me out of my (silent) lurker hole. As much as I want SSG and Matrixgames to live long and prosperous, I have to say that I really feel like a fool right now.
When I bought Kharkov, It was as much an attempt to support SSG as everybody else. However, I also noticed that I was entitled to a discount on the AtD2, when the time came. That promise made me purchase the game. And now, I see that the promise is not fulfilled. That is legally wrong, and commercially a potential disaster. For me, I probably will not buy AtD2 anyway. However, I would not have bought Kharkov without the promise of a discount for AtD2 either.
What should Matrix do about it? Well, If we make the assumption that a normal discount for a Matrix game is 25%, that means that AtD2 should have been discounted by 10§. I would expect Matrix to reimburse all original Kharkov customers, who have already bought AtD2, with 10§, as well as offering AtD2 at a discount 25% to anybody who can prove a prior ownership of Kharkov.
This solution will prove to all that Matrix will stand by their promises (SSG's promise of a discount is legally Matrix's promise), as well as give me a good reason to purchase AtD2.
Jens
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jeffreysutro@jeffreysutro.com
- Posts: 138
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:06 am
RE: Price
[font="Times New Roman"]Some of the earlier posts in this thread implied that the poster(s) felt that HPS games were a bargain compared to Kharkov/Across the Dneper. Consequently I took a look at the HPS website and found that HPS prices each battle at $50 ($49.95 to be exact). So to get their Kharkov and Smolensk games would would cost $100 compared to $90 for the SSG version. In addition SSG includes Husky and Konrad (which would bring the total HPS price up to $200 for all four) and Kirovagrad which doesn't appear to be available from SSG. Even if it is possible, as one poster stated, to find these games for $30 if you know where to look (which I don't) that's still $120 for 4 HPS battles compared to $90 for 5 SSG battles. I don't mean to imply that HPS games are overpriced, since they appear to me to be good games and well worth the money. My point is that the SSG games are priced right in line with the other comparable products on the market (even when the HPS games are heavily discounted), and in fact the SSG games are something of a bargain. [/font]
All My Best,
Jeff Sutro
Jeff Sutro
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JudgeDredd
- Posts: 8362
- Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:28 pm
- Location: Scotland
RE: Price
Jalla
If you had read this thread through, then you understand that Matrix have discounted AtD2 because they couldn't give a direct discount to AtD owners (by the way, the discount (as far as I am aware) was for previous AtD owners - not people who bought Kharkov).
So - the point I'm trying to make in your particular case is this -
a) just because you bought Kharkov does not mean you were getting a discount
b) you have actually been offered AtD2 at a discounted price
None of you lot might not like that. Some of you might not even believe it. But just because you don't believe they have discounted it, doesn't make it so...does it
I think it's time to put the thread to sleep. It's a dark day when most of the posts on a new release are about accusations of corruption. The price is what the price is. You've also been told here, by Erik, that they will come good in the next game for customers who bought.
Pay and play or don't pay and leave.
I can promise you I will not be posting in this thread again. The whining - and whilst I hate using that word, after all that's been said on this forum by Matrix and others, that is what it is and it's still not enough - is just plain annoying now.
Nighty night peeps. [8|]
If you had read this thread through, then you understand that Matrix have discounted AtD2 because they couldn't give a direct discount to AtD owners (by the way, the discount (as far as I am aware) was for previous AtD owners - not people who bought Kharkov).
So - the point I'm trying to make in your particular case is this -
a) just because you bought Kharkov does not mean you were getting a discount
b) you have actually been offered AtD2 at a discounted price
None of you lot might not like that. Some of you might not even believe it. But just because you don't believe they have discounted it, doesn't make it so...does it
I think it's time to put the thread to sleep. It's a dark day when most of the posts on a new release are about accusations of corruption. The price is what the price is. You've also been told here, by Erik, that they will come good in the next game for customers who bought.
Pay and play or don't pay and leave.
I can promise you I will not be posting in this thread again. The whining - and whilst I hate using that word, after all that's been said on this forum by Matrix and others, that is what it is and it's still not enough - is just plain annoying now.
Nighty night peeps. [8|]
Alba gu' brath
RE: Price
Jalla,
I gave them the benefit of the doubt on this issue and purchased AtD II to continue to support SSG.
If they plan on standardizing the series on the Kharkov engine ( I think they should) and follow an HPS style of game and engine release than I see much more profit in Matrix and SSG's future. Think how nice it would be to play all of the older
games with the newer engine updates.
The current business model makes all of the older games obsolete and a lost sale, which is a shame.
SSG needs to get away from the engine update biz and move to the new scenario/ map biz in my opinion.
Has the issue of SSG not being able to update the engine been addressed in the past?
I gave them the benefit of the doubt on this issue and purchased AtD II to continue to support SSG.
If they plan on standardizing the series on the Kharkov engine ( I think they should) and follow an HPS style of game and engine release than I see much more profit in Matrix and SSG's future. Think how nice it would be to play all of the older
games with the newer engine updates.
The current business model makes all of the older games obsolete and a lost sale, which is a shame.
SSG needs to get away from the engine update biz and move to the new scenario/ map biz in my opinion.
Has the issue of SSG not being able to update the engine been addressed in the past?
RE: Price
Judge and all,
As I've bought all the SSG previous titles (Korsun, AtD, BiN, BiI, Battlefront, Kharkov etc.), I don't feel like being told to don't pay and leave...
However, I don't want to be a party pooper, so I am not going to continue the price discussion here. As I said, I will not purchase AtD2, even though I did purchase AtD1 (for a very reasonable price if I remember right...).
As for the question of the current SSG engine, I could not agree more with TARG. The engine is only as good as the latest release. I loved Korsun Pocket, but based on how the engine has developed, that game is today so outdated that I cannot play it anymore.
So my whish is for SSG to develop a more modern engine and support it like HPS with incremental updates to all games. Also, SSG has to make games on more evenly matched battles than early Barbarossa. AtD is after all not as good a game as Korsun IMHO.
Jens
As I've bought all the SSG previous titles (Korsun, AtD, BiN, BiI, Battlefront, Kharkov etc.), I don't feel like being told to don't pay and leave...
However, I don't want to be a party pooper, so I am not going to continue the price discussion here. As I said, I will not purchase AtD2, even though I did purchase AtD1 (for a very reasonable price if I remember right...).
As for the question of the current SSG engine, I could not agree more with TARG. The engine is only as good as the latest release. I loved Korsun Pocket, but based on how the engine has developed, that game is today so outdated that I cannot play it anymore.
So my whish is for SSG to develop a more modern engine and support it like HPS with incremental updates to all games. Also, SSG has to make games on more evenly matched battles than early Barbarossa. AtD is after all not as good a game as Korsun IMHO.
Jens
RE: Price
Jeffreys, see this link http://yhst-12000246778232.stores.yahoo.net/noname.html nobody says that you buy in HPS site, if you want a direct support can pay more if not you have the other option [;)] and content... well, HPS Budapest have all the variants included in the great job made in the custom map for Kharkov and AtD2 plus other campaigns and variants and dont talk about Volcanoman job that made a full new OOB with changes the way to play more realistic for me, is like have 2 games in one.
PD: Dragon Age is another example like AtD2 but i can give more examples where expansion are under 20 euros.
PD: Dragon Age is another example like AtD2 but i can give more examples where expansion are under 20 euros.
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V22 Osprey
- Posts: 1593
- Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:07 pm
- Location: Corona, CA
RE: Price
This thread....
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RE: Price
ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey
This thread....
How does this contribute to the discussion?
back to the discussion:
I never purchased BiN due to the engine not being compatible with Korsun and only bought Kharkov as it seemed an imminent release of ATD2 was coming (and at a discount for previous owners). I also had hoped that Kharkov would benefit from
community created scenarios but alas we were not that fortunate.
Hopefully the community can recover and thrive like it did during Korsun pocket through battles in Italy.
The diversion to battlefront and carries at war seemed to take the wind out of the sails of the community, or perhaps the absence of Brubaker and JSS had an effect as well.
To those of you who feel the constructive criticism some of the community is offering to Matrix and SSG is whining, or people being cheap or telling people to buy the game or go away [:D]
How does this effect you personally? Some of you seem to take it that way. The Emperor's clothes are good but could be better.
Plenty of companies pay good money to get feed back they are getting in this thread. They should be very grateful and know that the worst that could happen is that rather than voice criticism and feedback on the forums they could say nothing and
simply not purchase any future products.
I purchased the game and have some complaints and suggestions,
If it becomes hostile and insulting for me to do that here than next time I will voice my concerns and complaints via my wallet and silence.