Price

[sliver_bullet]

SSG Mistake
Why keep quiet about promise that cannot be fulfill and not bother to comment when post about discount has been recently brought up in their own forum

Matrix Mistake
Allowing such "promise" to be printed in a Kharkov Manual ??

Customer Mistake
Why buy when you are not happy with the price ?

[Lützow]

The whole discussion here did not happen, if Kharkov/AtD got delivered with 8-10 scenarios (not considering the user created ones).

So when SSG was able to release more comprehensively games in the past, why their recent spin-offs are so small in terms of content? Why they simply don't rework scenarios from older titles into the new engine and call it a 'Battlefront II'? This would ensure a win-win situation with higher sales numbers and satisfied customers.

[ComradeP]

I have 11 scenarios in my Kharkov scenarios folder, and most of them are available to the public.

I've used the SSG games and editors and let me to you they aren't best interface around. The John Tiller interface is WAY easier to get than any SSG game. I couldn't even find any documentation on using the editor.

I've been using the DB series editor and the more modern editors for years now, and I really don't see what you're talking about. There's an editor manual shipped with every game starting with BiN, so I'm not sure how you missed that either.

[Hexagon]

11??? if i dont count the scens included in the 1.20 patch (2 new scens... well, 4 if you count Paula, Konrad and other early variant) i have 2 custom maps "Soltsty" and "Gothic line", are another 2 scens in the way, "Iskra" and "Borodino" and other that dont know exactly in what status is "Berlin".

When i talk about excesive price i evaluate the euro/hour but of course the scens included, for example i read that original AtD have 49 turns and this have 20-30 (correct me if i am wrong)... why not add the 49 turns campaign??? I know that do scens with programmed AI is hard but after learn to play the game people who continue playing VS AI are few and here the lack of scens (variants arent really "full" scens) are an important problem.

Talking about editing... SSG are hard to edit and i know people who try it but leave because find it impossible.

PD: i dont like the Atd2 non add-on price, another question is if AtD2 includes 1 or more extra campaings then 30 euros could be a more interesting price.

[Erik Rutins]

It seems to me that there are a few key points here, let me sum things up from my perspective.

1. There was a post in 2008 that was also included in the manual addendum that stated there would be a discount. Both SSG and Matrix forgot about that post, but we did attempt to do a discount, which turned out to be logistically impossible due to incomplete records of ATD sales. We then set the price based on the fact that we could not offer a discount. In other words, if there had been a discount those of you who own the original ATD from years ago would have likely ended up paying the same price as the base price is now.

2. From a release content standpoint, ATD has more content than Kharkov, despite being an "expansion". SSG included the ATD improvements as well as several free scenarios in a free Kharkov update which owners of Kharkov can enjoy whether or not they purchase ATD. This is a goodwill gesture to Kharkov owners and part of our message to you the customer that the Kharkov engine is indeed the future path of SSG releases and scenarios.

3. From a marketing standpoint, it is hard with both Kharkov and ATD to overcome the "it's just one scenario" argument. The fact is that this one scenario in each case, with mystery variants and different areas of operation, would be packaged in other game releases as a dozen separate scenario variants. The variants in these SSG releases are built into the one "mega-scenario" rather than being separated out individually. This makes it harder to explain the amount of content to customers. Once they play it, they generally realize that there is good value in there, but it's hard to get that point across if you focus on a simple scenario count and it's also hard (unless you're familiar with SSG) to adequately explain the care they put into a mega-scenario like ATD with all the variants. Their releases are generally in the very top group of our releases in terms of quality and challenge because of the amount of time they spend testing, re-testing, polishing and balancing. The AI in these games at the Computer+ setting can beat me, which is something I cannot say of most wargames.

We all regret greatly the miscommunication about the discount and we will try to make that up to you all in the next release. But for this one, I think it's time to look at what it offers and realize that it is actually worth the price and when compared to other SSG releases, it's one of the better ones in terms of content and wargaming challenge.

[Adam Parker]

I still don't know what all the fuss is about:

1. To play AtD2 you have to already own SSG's Kharkov.

2. Today owners of Kharkov have been given the full Invasion of Sicily (Husky) game; The Battle of Kirovograd originally featured in Korsun Pocket; and a scenario I haven't come across before with SSG being the 1945 offensive againsit Budapest (Operation Konrad) for free.

3. It is not news that SSG does not follow the HPS approach of releasing 30 scenarios in a game (being breakdowns of each campagin) and in the past I've been a vocal critic of this practice in the "value for money" debate. But this debate occured 2-5 years ago now. If you're in the market for AtD2 and already own SSG's Kharkov then you've moved on past this debate.

4. AtD2 replaces the original AtD which had a lousy AI and was an add-on to a long gone title Korsun Pocket, which had a lousy AI too. AtD2 offers gamers Army Group Center's entire 1941 advance towards Moscow - and going on what I've seen of Husky 2, its AI should now kick ass.

5. Although I was invited by SSG to help test AtD2 and Husky I only got so far as the latter - as life's priorities intervened. I have no other association with this game and heck, expect that I'll need to pay to download AtD2 myself if I want to give it a whirl. That's only fair given the time that I could devote - but based on what I saw with Husky 2 - it's a beaut! It beat my Patton and Montgomery cold.

Therefore in summary. If you want to play Husky, 1/2 of Korsun Pocket now updated and the equivalent main scenario of HPS's Panzer Campaigns Budapest '45 - they're yours for free right now.

If you finally want to be able to play the main scenario equivalent of HPS's Panzer Campaigns Smolensk '41 with a working AI - then pay $40 for it. That's in addition to being able to play the main scenario in HPS's Panzer Campaigns Kharkov 42 having already owned SSG's Kharkov.

Now what Matrix and SSG should do, is work out a combined Kharkov + AtD2 deal for new gamers. Yeah, in life loyal customers do miss out - just ask my cable company with its Welcome to Cable deals - screw others who've already paid for their installation 10 years ago.

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
...just ask my cable company with its Welcome to Cable deals - screw others who've already paid for their installation 10 years ago.

I expect many people suffer from this! [:'(]

[Hexagon]

2 points.

1- if AtD2 have "more content" than Kharkov (when i buy Kharkov i now the lack of standar scens but espect an expansion/add-on but at expansion/add-on price, dont remember now the AtD price but was inferior to 20 euros SURE) WHY you dont sell it as stand alone game with a full game price??? if i only want AtD2 (not my case) can buy AtD2 and dont need buy Kharkov but now if somebody want do it need buy 2 games (price of AtD2 is a FULL game price) for example i pay 23,99 EUR for Kharkov in last sale in Matrixgames (dont include VAT) a good price for me because i expect an expansion/add-on that for me cost in the worst situation... 20 euros without discount (see the FoG expansions/army list prices for example) but hey, i find an expansion for 30 euros and some confusing arguments that say that an announced expansion/add-on isnt an expansion/add-on, it is a full game but with no full game price [&:][&:][&:] i am not a baby, if i hear EXPANSION and find an non expansion price dont talk me of full games that are not full games and need another game to work [:-]

2-HPS has another type of games, another way of the wargamer, dont like all their ideas BUT they dont do strange maneuvers, i know what they have and at what price, they do discounts first days of the game and post the time range (i dont buy in HPS place but i want note this) they dont call their games expansions/add-ons and you dont need buy Smolensks to play rest of PzC games for example.

Dont understand me bad, i like Kharkov and find AtD2 interesting but for me dont cost 30 euros because is an expansion/add-on and say that the cost is because the add-on is like a new game BUT need Kharkov is a little...

PD: i dont find the original prices of Korsun and AtD but i remember that AtD dont cost 30 euros.

[Arckon]

To be perfectly honest before this came out I was expecting it to be $10 - $15 cheaper than the original Kharkov. So when I saw $45AU I didn't hesitate to purchase, I know the quality, and I know it has one of the best AI's currently available in turn-based games.

I very much enjoy the HPS games, I own quite a few of their WWII and ACW games but honestly their AI is hopeless, and I haven't played their games in aprox 2 years as I have not had the time for PBEM for about 2 years.

If I did not already own Kharkov (being familiar with SSG's earlier games) I would buy that now, have Kharkov, Husky and Konrad with very good AI which would keep me engaged for quite a few months and then a few months down the track buy ATD, but then as I said in my first sentence I was expecting this to be priced at $40 - $45 anyway based on earlier discounts Matrix have offered on other titles like Crown of Glory Empororers edition etc.

[Henri]

Since I am somewhat of a "different" user, let me chime in again.

I finally bought Kharkov yesterday, but not ATD2 (yet). I would have preferred that ATD2 be sold as a stand-alone game, and would have bought it immediately based on the fun I had with the original ATD, one of my all-time favorites.

I bought WITP AE despite knowing that I would probably never play it fully (and I haven't after over a year), because such monster games boggles my mind and I end up just gazing at the map with my brain in neutral.

I bought Korsun Pocket and never played it, but I needed it to pay ATD. (I also don't like ames with mostly stationary front lines, preferring maneuver games like CEAW or Advanced Tactics, both of which I have played extensively.

Although cost is not that big an issue in isolated terms, note that there is hardly a week that goes by when a major new game doesn't come out. So I buy games like World of Warcraft, all the variations of Total War, the John Tiller games, all variations of Europa Universalis, HOI3, SC, SC2 etc and so on and so on. I have been thinking about buying Distant Worlds, but the supply problems have kept me away so far. In sum, I could easily spend $100 a month or more on games (and often do), but still, I have to think about getting my money's worth and $90 is a lot of money (my money's worth is one to two weeks of gameplay and I often get bored a lot faster than that).

Henri

[NavalNewZ]

.

[Duck Doc]

You hit the nail on the head. I am astounded at those who just don't get it. At 50$ AtD2 is a bargain. Wargames don't come any better. This isn't a scenario - it is a way of life. I am happy to make the investment. I have not had one regret about an SSG purchase. I don't wargame much any more but this series is my rock. I always come back to it. I started gaming again with a PBEM game in Battles in Italy. What durability & quality!

[Hexagon]

For me AtD2 is a scenario same as Kharkov, if i pay for Kharkov is because SSG works in an expansion called AtD2, i see Kharkov as an expansive investiment and AtD2 as a "cheap" add-on to Kharkov my disgusting with AtD2 price is that the original AtD dont cost 30 euros and both are called expansions... this is my point of view.

If we talk about relation between cost and diversion i have FULL games cheaper than AtD2 and that provide me hours and hours of game time.

PD: opinions are like butts, everybody has one and all works in the same way [:D]

[jmlima]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
... Their releases are generally in the very top group of our releases in terms of quality and challenge because of the amount of time they spend testing, re-testing, polishing and balancing. ...

Erik,

Far from be to be nity picky, but, you wrote the above when on this same forum there is a thread refering that one of the scenarios shipping with this release is 75% finished. [:D]

[squatter]

Kharkov/AtD are the best hex based WWII land war games that have ever been produced.

The combination of clear interface and elegant combat engine put them head and shoulders above anything else.

If you are interested in this genre then you are crazy not to try it. And SSG title only comes along ever two years or so.

If you PBEM you will get unlimited value out of it.

I agree AtD should have been released as a standalone. But hey, if you don't already own Kharkov, just by that one instead - with all the Konrad/Husky added content, Kharkov is now an excellent purchase.

That's my shout.

[e_barkmann]

there is a thread refering that one of the scenarios shipping with this release is 75% finished

...in the original poster's opinion.

cheers

[planetbrain]

OK, I've got this expansion now.
Disappointed, I was, to see the price. I still think it's too high for a one scenario expansion for a system already in place,but.........
I have been sold by the positive comments in this forum and I do know that SSG (generally) produce a quality product. In consideration, too, that this quality includes progression & refinements.

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: Hexagon
...my disgusting with AtD2 price is that the original AtD dont cost 30 euros and both are called expansions... this is my point of view.

To be fair, though....Petrol doesn't cost what it cost 3 years ago. The car that I wanted 3 years ago has gone up. The price of that Graphics card...everything has gone up m8. The original AtD cost, what, $20?? I don't know. So this one costs $30...it's not rocket science. The prices of things go up. Peoples wages go up. Interest Rates go up (and sometimes down). My pension invested in shares took a nose dive a year ago and has rocketed this year...it's the way of the world.

[Hexagon]

And graphics go up, content go up... O WAIT!!! [:D] AtD2 isnt a "new" game, is an add-on made with Kharkov "new" engine i understand that Kharkov be a little overpriced but i dont see the same when talk about AtD2 because usually an expansion/add-on cost half price and the half of 36 euros isnt 30 [:-]

My point of view is clear and i am going to wait to the first 30% discount in Matrixgames because pay 21 euros for AtD2 isnt a perfect price but is less abusive than 30 euros.

PD: HPS games cost the same now than 5 years ago [8|]

[JudgeDredd]

Well, I won't get into the HPS/Matrix Games argument if you don't mind.

You seem to be getting stuck on "words" and "previous cost". Add On could well be the wrong word to use. If I've read correctly, the AtD2 (addon) has a bigger map and more units than Kharkov but costs less.

I'm talking about SSG and quality gaming per hour. I'm not talking about what the last addon 10 years ago cost. I'm not comparing the price to other addons. I'm not talking about how many scenarios you get. I'm not talking about whether it's got a campaign or not. I'm talking quality per gaming hour, and in that sense, £30 is cheap.

I won't argue with you or anyone else anymore about it. You've made up your mind it's too pricey. I think you think your concerns are valid. However I think if you look at it per gaming pound and how long you will be playing the game and the level of challenge in the game (and I'm basing my impressions on Kharkov), I disagree.