Not to be too critical but....

[Nick R]

Okay, I have some observations and feedback regarding the game.

1. It seems too scripted. You begin already at war with Poland, France and England. Both the Soviets and the US join the war at predetermined points. Its pretty much a foregone conclusion at that point. It’s like letting someone know the end of the story and telling them now read the book, not very interesting.
2. After playing the game and trying different things I found some disturbing problems. After taking over England (I should add France here too), they still retain all their production and manpower and the only thing Germany gets is like 20 more production and no increase in manpower. That can’t be right.
3. Leadership doesn’t seem worth it. Buying a General for 125 production points doesn’t seem worth it. I would suggest that the Generals be able to form Armies from several Corps and provide them all the benefit. Perhaps then they would be useful.
4. I would have liked a more “open” style similar to the game “Making History” which I would classify as a simulation of WWII as opposed to CEAW that I would classify as a reenactment.

Perhaps there is some mod or some option that I don’t know about that fixes these issues but without something to change the scripted game play its not a very enjoyable or playable game in my opinion.

[IainMcNeil]

Just to clarify - the entry dates vary, but they are always going to be aroudn the time they really occured. Without this you woudl need an entire diplomacy system to model war entry and this is not what CEAW is about.
 
It is intentional that a conquering nation gains no man power from subject nations. In reality a very small proportion of people fought for their conqueror.
 
Leaders are very powerful if used correctly. On the harder settings you'll find you need to use them to survive.
 
CEAW leaves lots of options open without making it completely free form. We felt a free form game would not have been WW2, but something like a game of Civilization.
 
These are all design decisions and not bugs

[Nick R]

Iain,

Thanks for the clarification. Unfortunately, and as I stated not being too critical, for me it makes the game a historical reenactment, one in which I know the ending without it would seem a lot of variation.
I still would like to know the justification for England keeping its manpower and production capacity after they have been conquered? Also why doesn’t that production capacity become Germany’s?

[Harrybanana]

Nick,

It's funny how 2 different people will play the same game and have completely different reactions. I have some criticisms of the game as well but they are different then yours. I have no problem with the game starting with Germany already at war with Poland, france and England. I would not call this game a reenactment of WWII becasue you don't have to "follow the script" if you don't want to. Germany can invade England, or Spain or Sweden or make a concerted effort for the Middle east oil fields. It can choose not to invade Yugoslavia or Greece. The Allies can invade France in 42 or 43 or not at all. Not only do you have a wide selection of strategy you also have a wide selection in what type of units to build. I played some HOI 2 and the criticism of that game is that often WWII would end up being between the Allies and Russia rather than the Allies and Germany. Maybe you prefer that variety, but for myself I want to refight WWII as Allies vs the Axis.

I agree with your criticisms about the Commanders. I'm not sure what the rational of making them so expensive was. What are they baseball players or movie stars or something? They can be useful, but historically all the Commanders listed served at one time or another; but I've yet to play a game where all of them are used. Why not make them cheap for everybody. The game is called "Commander Eurpoe at War" isn't it.

I have no problem with Germany only acquiring half of a conquered nations production. Conquered workers were actually not very productive. As for the UK don't forget that it's production represents not only that of the UK itself, but also Canada, South Africa, Australia, India, New Zealand, etc.

[firepowerjohan]

It is correct, you conquer someones land in CEAW then you seize their oil and pp production but not their manpower. Furthermoe production is halved in conquered countries to not allow unrealistic super economies. If UK loses England then despite them having a lot of manpower, what will be the limiting factor for them is their industry captured by Axis and so manpower would not make any difference, UK is clearly weakened as soon as they lose the British Islands IMO.

Commanders are very powerful in game and the cost of them could represent the HQ+leader role. In some other games you can build HQ units separately and they cost a lot of money but here we make the HQ's invisible from map so it is roughly the same thing.

[Nick R]

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

Commanders are very powerful in game and the cost of them could represent the HQ+leader role. In some other games you can build HQ units separately and they cost a lot of money but here we make the HQ's invisible from map so it is roughly the same thing.

Johan,

I dont see how they are very powerful. Based on my game play, they have minimal effectiveness. If they could provide their "expertise" to several units in the area to represent an Army Group, which is what they did in real life not Corps, then they would indeed be valuable.

As for the production and manpower, I can see your point on the production, however I dont see where I have received half of their production. It looks like I gained perhaps 20 or so points. As for the manpower, England should loose lets say at least half of its manpower I would think as well.

It would be nice to see a mod that would allow you to begin earlier than 39 and to not be at war I just dont know how to do that.

Harry,

I do appreciate your perspective but I think you are "forced" to follow the script as its the only one that makes sense, at least to me, unless you have come up with a way to defeat the allies by conquering the Middle East, which I would be very interested in seeing. As for the workers, I meant that after conquering England, they still retain their manpower, whcih should not be the case. I was not looking for them to add much to Germany's manpower pool.

[firepowerjohan]

Commanders do provide several units increased max effectiveness. You wont see it right away once you deploy the leader since Max Effectiveness and Current Effectiveness is not the same thing. Deploy Manstein around French front lines and you will soon see all land units within 8 hexes range having 16% higher effectiveness and also in Combat it will give grdatt +1 for the unit atttached to.

Especially for Axis, this is a good way of getting more bang for the bucks since your units get a little better while it do not cost you any extra manpower or oil.

[Nick R]

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

Commanders do provide several units increased max effectiveness. You wont see it right away once you deploy the leader since Max Effectiveness and Current Effectiveness is not the same thing. Deploy Manstein around French front lines and you will soon see all land units within 8 hexes range having 16% higher effectiveness and also in Combat it will give grdatt +1 for the unit atttached to.

Especially for Axis, this is a good way of getting more bang for the bucks since your units get a little better while it do not cost you any extra manpower or oil.

Johan,

Sorry I wasnt fully aware of this. I did go to the manual and it does say in their Leadership range, so can you tell us what the range is?

Do you know of a way to do a mod that would allow Germany not to be at war and to start earlier?

[firepowerjohan]

Yes, you can use the editor for making mods that start earlier than 1939 [:)]
There are modding communities that can help you out since making maps and scenarios is not too easy.

[Nick R]

Is there an editor that you would suggest I use?

[Tac2i]

You can download the CEaW editor here:
http://slitherine.com/files/ceaw/editor ... _v1.04.exe

According to a post on the Slitherine forums, the 1.04 editor works with the game patched to 1.06.

ORIGINAL: Nick R

Is there an editor that you would suggest I use?

[alaric318]

ORIGINAL: Nick R

Johan,

Sorry I wasnt fully aware of this. I did go to the manual and it does say in their Leadership range, so can you tell us what the range is?

commanders default range is 8 hexes from where his parent "attached" unit is, so you can make for sure "under command cover" all east front with maybe 3/4 germans generals, anyway, Johan already answer this question,

best regards,

Murat30.

is difficult to make a game to reach all people concept of perfection, CEAW is a great game, the best notice for me this year is that slitherine already is working, nothing the less than in a CEAW for napoleonics, that maybe can come on June
personally, the past year, the game that more fun have take on me is CEAW, both making mods and playing it, easy to mod files, do help to it,

regards.
mods...

follow these links at your discrection...
tm.asp?m=1693337

and, mine... (at the moment only for 1.04, my mods)...
http://hosted.filefront.com/Alarick
global war is better, have included japanase forces based on europe, only european theater however,

enjoy!

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

Commanders are very powerful in game and the cost of them could represent the HQ+leader role. In some other games you can build HQ units separately and they cost a lot of money but here we make the HQ's invisible from map so it is roughly the same thing.

I'm not disputing that Commanders are powerful, what I am disputing is their cost. If the cost is supposed to represent the entire HQ then why does Manstein cost more than say Kluge? Asuming the HQs are the same size why does one cost more than another? And why even bother including all those French and Italian HQs when the most that ever get used are one or two and so many are the same. And why do none of the scenarios start with any of the commanders deployed? Did the Germans not have any HQs on the Russian front in June 41, was Rommel not in Afrika? My point being that in most games you are only going to be able to afford 3 or 4 HQs as the Germans and about 4 or 5 as the Allies. Sure you can build more but it is at the cost of your other units. And I don't really think the cost of an HQ Unit, even an Army Group, costs as much as 4 armored divisions.

I suppose if the cost were significantly reduced everyone would build several leaders, but I don't see the harm in that. Except I don't know if Leader effects overlap. In other words if a unit is within the leadership range of two leaders does it receive the effectiveness increase benefits from both leaders or just the higher leader?

[Nick R]

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

Commanders are very powerful in game and the cost of them could represent the HQ+leader role. In some other games you can build HQ units separately and they cost a lot of money but here we make the HQ's invisible from map so it is roughly the same thing.

I'm not disputing that Commanders are powerful, what I am disputing is their cost. If the cost is supposed to represent the entire HQ then why does Manstein cost more than say Kluge? Asuming the HQs are the same size why does one cost more than another? And why even bother including all those French and Italian HQs when the most that ever get used are one or two and so many are the same. And why do none of the scenarios start with any of the commanders deployed? Did the Germans not have any HQs on the Russian front in June 41, was Rommel not in Afrika? My point being that in most games you are only going to be able to afford 3 or 4 HQs as the Germans and about 4 or 5 as the Allies. Sure you can build more but it is at the cost of your other units. And I don't really think the cost of an HQ Unit, even an Army Group, costs as much as 4 armored divisions.

I suppose if the cost were significantly reduced everyone would build several leaders, but I don't see the harm in that. Except I don't know if Leader effects overlap. In other words if a unit is within the leadership range of two leaders does it receive the effectiveness increase benefits from both leaders or just the higher leader?

Johan / Harry/ Anyone,

Can the costs be modded? Not being even a novice at modding I dont want to assume that it can or cannot be done. I would certainly like to see a mod that made them say the price of a garrison and see what the impact is and adjust from there. Perhaps even, as Harry suggested deploy say 1 or 2 at the begining.

[Nick R]

ORIGINAL: Murat30

ORIGINAL: Nick R

Johan,

Sorry I wasnt fully aware of this. I did go to the manual and it does say in their Leadership range, so can you tell us what the range is?

commanders default range is 8 hexes from where his parent "attached" unit is, so you can make for sure "under command cover" all east front with maybe 3/4 germans generals, anyway, Johan already answer this question,

best regards,

Murat30.

is difficult to make a game to reach all people concept of perfection, CEAW is a great game, the best notice for me this year is that slitherine already is working, nothing the less than in a CEAW for napoleonics, that maybe can come on June
personally, the past year, the game that more fun have take on me is CEAW, both making mods and playing it, easy to mod files, do help to it,

regards.
mods...

follow these links at your discrection...
tm.asp?m=1693337

and, mine... (at the moment only for 1.04, my mods)...
http://hosted.filefront.com/Alarick
global war is better, have included japanase forces based on europe, only european theater however,

enjoy!

Murat,

I agree it is very difficult if not impossible to make everyone happy. Johan did certainly clairify several things for me that help me appreciate the game more.

As for modding the game, is there a way to mod the prices of units? If so can you give me any advice on modding or how to mod?

Thanks,

[Harrybanana]

[/quote]

Johan / Harry/ Anyone,

Can the costs be modded? Not being even a novice at modding I dont want to assume that it can or cannot be done. I would certainly like to see a mod that made them say the price of a garrison and see what the impact is and adjust from there. Perhaps even, as Harry suggested deploy say 1 or 2 at the begining.

[/quote]

I'm not very familar with modding either, but I do know that other mods have altered the unit costs so I assume this can be done. I'm not sure if you can deploy Commanders at the beginning of a scenario or not though. I would have thought if you could some of the scenarios would have started with some Commanders already deployed.

[alaric318]

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

Johan / Harry/ Anyone,

Can the costs be modded? Not being even a novice at modding I dont want to assume that it can or cannot be done. I would certainly like to see a mod that made them say the price of a garrison and see what the impact is and adjust from there. Perhaps even, as Harry suggested deploy say 1 or 2 at the begining.

I'm not very familar with modding either, but I do know that other mods have altered the unit costs so I assume this can be done. I'm not sure if you can deploy Commanders at the beginning of a scenario or not though. I would have thought if you could some of the scenarios would have started with some Commanders already deployed.

greetings, as far as i know you cannot deploy pre-start generals.

for mod units cost there are on /CEAW/data/ directory two files, i am speaking of 1.04, unit.txt and unit_eng.txt, i am not sure what the file to mod, so, for the better chance of success edit both files at wished costs for units, it is not difficult, only mind about the costs that you see on the game and then is easy to understand what numbers to change on the files, hope it helps,

best regards,

murat30.

Post-Edit... Remember to backup the original files before modding to be capable to return at choice to unmodded gameplay, i always have two installs, one unmodded and other with the latest version of modded files.

regards.

[Nick R]

Okay, looks like the file to edit is leader.txt and leader_eng.txt. Not sure what the difference is, perhaps Johan can tell us????

Hmm, I also noticed that some generals dont appear to have a cost.

[alaric318]

ORIGINAL: Nick R

Okay, looks like the file to edit is leader.txt and leader_eng.txt. Not sure what the difference is, perhaps Johan can tell us????

Hmm, I also noticed that some generals dont appear to have a cost.

greetings, take care that Commander costs are somewhat hardcoded, you can change/mod the Commander's attributes and reduce/increase cost, adding attack and defense change Commander's costs, so onwards for leadership attribute, attack is the more expensive, then is defense and then leadership, you can make cheap commanders, increasing attack and defense can be expensive as first view but an unit with a high attack/defense commander can be dangerous and worth the cost, remember to backup the files to change on other directory or make two installs, not install two times, only copy and paste the directory and edit one of them, with hardcoded i was wanting to mean that aside you see a "cost" attribute in leader.txt, aside what you set there, it do not change on any way the cost of the commander, only way is to change, leadership, attack and defense, hope it helps,

best regards,

murat30.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: Murat30


greetings, take care that Commander costs are somewhat hardcoded, you can change/mod the Commander's attributes and reduce/increase cost, adding attack and defense change Commander's costs, so onwards for leadership attribute, attack is the more expensive, then is defense and then leadership, you can make cheap commanders, increasing attack and defense can be expensive as first view but an unit with a high attack/defense commander can be dangerous and worth the cost, remember to backup the files to change on other directory or make two installs, not install two times, only copy and paste the directory and edit one of them, with hardcoded i was wanting to mean that aside you see a "cost" attribute in leader.txt, aside what you set there, it do not change on any way the cost of the commander, only way is to change, leadership, attack and defense, hope it helps,

best regards,

murat30.

If I understand you correctly you can not mod the game to have a good commander cost less as the commander cost is hardcoded in and is directly related to how good the commander is. That is too bad. I think it would have been fun to try a game where all commanders were inexpensive to see what effect this had on the game. Again I really don't understand what the historical justification was for having commanders cost so much in terms of production points. Yes, I know they may be worth the cost, but that is not my point. One of the biggest advantages the Germans had in the early part of the war is that their generals and HQs (while costing the same amount to train and equip as the Allied generals and HQs) were generally superior. This, imho, is not properly reflected in the game. Yes the Germans have the superior commanders, but they also cost more than the inferior Allied Generals, and that is what I don't agree with.