Impression of BiI

[coach3play4]

1) No problem with digital download - have high speed cable, done in a few minutes.

2) All improvements (from Korsun) very useful, and add to gameplay. I like the inclusion of AA
to surpress interdiction. I thought the useless AA in Korsun was not good for the game play and the justification was lame.

3) I though the AI played a good game - I kind of play like speed chess - and also don't try
unreasonable moves, and under those conditions, you get a real challenge.

If anyone is thinking about buying - go ahead and buy. SSG has made great war games for 20 years.

[coach3play4]

I should add, for first impressions, that there were no bugs or crashes.
I thought I found one - I landed some units, and could not get them to
move, only to find I managed to land them in a swamp!

[wodin]

I take a different ngle on how to play these games. I try and play as if Im a commander rather than like chess. I used to play like it was chess but I found I lost all the immersion.

Its one problem I find with many wargames. So many tend to play like a chess game rather than simulating a particular battle or War.

[Hartford688]

ORIGINAL: wodin

I take a different ngle on how to play these games. I try and play as if Im a commander rather than like chess. I used to play like it was chess but I found I lost all the immersion.

Its one problem I find with many wargames. So many tend to play like a chess game rather than simulating a particular battle or War.

With the AI disengaging units and whizzing them around the map to gang up on my weak points, a multicoloured chess game is what it feels like to me sometimes. I agree with you - that effect loses immersion for me. Realize that is not entirely your point, but I was struck yesterday as I tried to get back into BiN as the AI zoomed units back and forth across the map, it somehow did not feel like Max Hasting's "Overlord". Good game, solid AI challenge etc, still bizarrely tempted by BiI (which I must fight, fight!). My problem, I guess. I can see why others love it.

[Hartford688]

ORIGINAL: Hartford688

ORIGINAL: wodin

I take a different ngle on how to play these games. I try and play as if Im a commander rather than like chess. I used to play like it was chess but I found I lost all the immersion.

Its one problem I find with many wargames. So many tend to play like a chess game rather than simulating a particular battle or War.

With the AI disengaging units and whizzing them around the map to gang up on my weak points, a multicoloured chess game is what it feels like to me sometimes. I agree with you - that effect loses immersion for me. Realize that is not entirely your point, but I was struck yesterday as I tried to get back into BiN as the AI zoomed units back and forth across the map, it somehow did not feel like Max Hasting's "Overlord". Good game, solid AI challenge etc, still bizarrely tempted by BiI (which I must fight, fight!). My problem, I guess. I can see why others love it.

Sorry, my reply was rather OT given this is the BiI forum...

[Fred98]

Yes I have never been a fan of “chess like” scenarios in wargaming.

The best scenario is a fictional scenario within a historical setting

[bostonrpgmania]

ORIGINAL: wodin

I take a different ngle on how to play these games. I try and play as if Im a commander rather than like chess. I used to play like it was chess but I found I lost all the immersion.

Its one problem I find with many wargames. So many tend to play like a chess game rather than simulating a particular battle or War.

Wodin and I agreed to disgree sometime ago on the immersiveness of DB seris and SB series [;)]
For me, DB series was very immersive. For tactical level game, I found that I prefer combat mission much more than SB series for immersion factor.

On the contrary, modern campaign or Pz campaign was very immersive for me ...

So the bottomline is
immersiveness is not just a physical characteristics of game but is the one which is deeply tied to players preference

[Kipper]

I love the DB series, but I get most of my fun out of it by not "playing well" - sure I can play the system and get the victories, but not by taking the approaches I would take if I did not know what was under the hood of the system and was purely role playing the commander's role. So I try to role play and sometimes it throws up interesting results and sometimes I just get squashed by the AI/PBEM opponent.

I guess my point is - should a good wargame promote role playing the commander's role or "working the system"? I would say the former. Note I say promote - not enforce, which would be pretty hard to do!

Kipper

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: bostonrpgmania

Wodin and I agreed to disgree sometime ago on the immersiveness of DB seris and SB series [;)]
For me, DB series was very immersive. For tactical level game, I found that I prefer combat mission much more than SB series for immersion factor.

On the contrary, modern campaign or Pz campaign was very immersive for me ...

So the bottomline is
immersiveness is not just a physical characteristics of game but is the one which is deeply tied to players preference

Youve lost me there mate.....

From what i could see you didnt get immersed into SB as you didnt grasp the basic mechanics of the game. Anygame you play thats turn based if you dont grasp the mechanics you wont get immersed..simple really. I think you'd have problems with immersion in any turn based tactical game as it seemed you didnt graps the basic tactics needed nor understand the actual scale of 50 metre hex.

[Fred98]

I too cannot grasp 50 meters per hex.

How far can a man move in a turn?

How do you use fire and movement?

How does the cover vary in that 50 meters?

How do grenades come into play? Is it thrown within the hex at enemy within the same hex?

[wodin]

Joe,

Its all a question of scale. This is a scale one up from the individual soldier. The next scale is operational style of game. This is a turn based 5 mintue turn game. Thus being so it is totally different to say Close Combat. With CC your watching what the squad does here its abstracted. However you dont have total control of each soldier in CC. You send your squad out and then see how the do. Well imagine that squad instead as a counter then divided the map into hexes and place the counter there. Then divide the time into 5 minute chunks.Yoouve now abstracted the game.

Your not dealing with individual soldiers your in command of squads.Your sending them out todo a job. Your not the individual soldier/soldiers your a company commander or battalion or even regiment depending on the scenario.

The squad will move as far as its limits or as far as you want/order it within a 5 mintue turn depending on the squad stance.

How the actually use the terrian for cover of the hex at the smaller scale is left to your imagination.
Your imagination has to come into play as to what the squad is doing within the hex just like it does when playing an operational level game like HTTR.

Just like operational games 50 mtre hex squad games are abstracted to a point. Remember that turn based games are abstracted anyway as your abstracing say a five minute period of time. You counter is one squad. This is you base unit. Within that hex it will have a certain terrain. This terrian will count towards protection and cover. You will also have hexsides i.e. a wall or hedge this will also add protection and cover.

Weapons like grenades would be used when you assault into a adjacent hex contianing the enemy. Thats you telling your squad to get in their close up and kill em.

As for Fire and Movement goto the SteelPanthers fourm and ask Wild Bill. He is sure to explain the tactics better than I am.

Infact goto the steel panthers forum and ask the same question. Your questions will be answered far better than I have done. Or goto to the ASL forum over at Warfare HQ.

[wodin]

Sorry this is getting OT.

I apologise.

[bostonrpgmania]

Well,
It is not a matter of understanding games or not
It is a matter of whether games hook players to spend some time in understanding its tactics and strategy
KP and BiN do that to me
Combat mission does that to me
Campain series does that to me
But for some weird reason I could not get into SB.....
Well well some like coffee some like tea
We dont have to be opinionated[:-]
Sales will tell...
Lets stop talking about one's preference.
Maybe if you do not like DB series, I think voting by exit from the game that you are not interested would be a good idea, especially when you do not have or tried BiI.

[wodin]

Hey Boston I tried getting you to understand the game. I kept telling you not to do this or that and sent you many emails.

Yet during the game we played it was as if I was wasting my breath.

What erked me most was that you never even tried to play again and learn it. The Korean game even had a Grunt School article which clearly explained how to approach the game yet you didnt know it was there.

If I had no understanding of SB and played it the way you were I'd have had no joy out of the game either.

No game is fun if you cant play it properly.

I'm useless at racing games. Sure many love them but I cant get into them at all as Im terrible at them.

Its even more so with games that dont have the eye candy either.

What does sales will tell mean aswell? Im sure both series have sold well otherwise SB wouldnt be upto its 7th title. Same as SSG now at its 3rd.

Also you say dont state a preference if you mean with regards to games...........I never did all I said was that I prefer to play the game as a military sim rather than a Chess game. Your the one who started to compare series!

As for the DB series. I like it. I actually own KP and its expansion. I may buy BiI aswell. The games mechanics wrok brilliantly. The only point I'd like to see is an actual figure of losses in men and vehicles similar to PzC. So who says I have no interest in the series?

[bostonrpgmania]

Ok Wodin
I am glad that you also liked DB series
I will try SB again when my interest comes back
Maybe I will understand the game mechanics better, then, I hope
Hope you enjoy DB and find some immersion as well

[SlapBone]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Same as SSG now at its 3rd.

This is the 4th in the DB series. The Ardennes Offensive was the first.

[Rocco]

OK, what is SB [&:]

I hate acronyms [:D]

Thanks,

Rocco

[bostonrpgmania]

SB=squad battles (HPS squad level turn based game)

[aysi]

Well my impressions of Battles in Italy is that its great,anybody with a love of regimental size games should pick it up post haste,the scenarios look like the best yet,although i have just started a pbem game of Husky and not really played the others i have checked them out....like to play fresh pbem

And bostonrpgmania i have tried Squad battles and there is no magic under the hood for me they are just a bit lame,i got board real fast but PZC are another story

[wodin]

You managed to play 51 games PBEM though! If thats bored pretty fast you have played the game far more times than Ive played many of the games Ive owned. Also if I though a game was lame I wouldnt play 51 games on a ladder. It really took awhile for it to sink in didn't it.

Is it something todo with your win loss ratio.......[;)]

ONLY KIDDING.

Boston,

Sorry to dive off into the deep end with you.

Some people enjoy certain games others dont.

Thing with me is even though Ive not got on with many games that have had a hardcore following Ive never said they were "lame" or rubbish. I just admit to myself I dont get it and leave it at that. If a game has a hardcore following and many actually love it then I know Im not getting it usually its down to scale which means I dont understand the scale and cant picture in my head what is going on. Why go around pi##ing on peoples corn flakes?