What a load of crap

uncle joe · Post by **uncle joe** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 4:36 am

Plunked down 50 bucks for this game and discover that I have to go to Kinkos to get the manual printed. WTF?! Yeah, I'll play it and enjoy it, but how come Battlefront.com can print a terrific manual and include it in their game while Matrix has it on PDF and expects the customer to get it printed at their own expense? When will companies ever learn that one of the steps to developing a devoted fan base means providing a first rate manual IN PRINTED FORM! Take a clue from battlefront.com, fellas - you missed the boat on this one. Had I known about this, I definitely would have not bought this until the price was lowered, and because I feel like I was screwed, will probably not buy the next game they put out. Yeah, like that will make a difference, but at least I'm voicing my opinion with my money next time!

Fred98 · Post by **Fred98** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:00 am

1. I too would prefer a manual

2. As for the price, Aussies have to pay in AUD. About A$80 plus shipping.

3. This is a great game. I played the original for 2 years. (It was a free download). This has many improvements.

Ross Moorhouse · Post by **Ross Moorhouse** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:14 am

Originally posted by uncle joe
Plunked down 50 bucks for this game and discover that I have to go to Kinkos to get the manual printed. WTF?! Yeah, I'll play it and enjoy it, but how come Battlefront.com can print a terrific manual and include it in their game while Matrix has it on PDF and expects the customer to get it printed at their own expense? When will companies ever learn that one of the steps to developing a devoted fan base means providing a first rate manual IN PRINTED FORM! Take a clue from battlefront.com, fellas - you missed the boat on this one. Had I known about this, I definitely would have not bought this until the price was lowered, and because I feel like I was screwed, will probably not buy the next game they put out. Yeah, like that will make a difference, but at least I'm voicing my opinion with my money next time!

Many bigger publishers than us are selling top rating games down under here in DVD cases. No manuals.

You get the players guide with KP and from reading many different forums than this is very well liked. Even comments that the manual is just a reference guide and they have no problems with it being on the disc.

elmo3 · Post by **elmo3** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:35 am

Uncle joe is entitled to his opinion. Mine is that the printed Players Guide (aka tutorial) gives you all the basics needed to play the game. I'd rather have the other manual in pdf so you guys can fix any errata and post an update rather than have a printed manual that may soon be out of date.

uncle joe · Post by **uncle joe** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:43 am

Originally posted by Ross Moorhouse
Many bigger publishers than us are selling top rating games down under here in DVD cases. No manuals.

You get the players guide with KP and from reading many different forums than this is very well liked. Even comments that the manual is just a reference guide and they have no problems with it being on the disc.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Saying other companies do it this way is a rationalization of a position that in my view is indefensible. This is a trend that should not be tolerated, but because in this case the consumer is so passionate about this particular genre, you could probably sell this game with absolutely zero documentation and it would still sell well. First rate wargames such as this are a rarity, and instead of doing it right (once again, look at BFC), a corner was cut. Your bottom line will no doubt look better, but a great manual has long term benifits with regards to consumer good will, and you can't put a price on that.

Yeah, the players guide is nicely done. The forums are and will be a great source of info. I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't mind it being on disc. But bottom line is that the manual exists for a reason and not including it in printed form is wrong. Look at the debacle with Hearts of Iron. They printed a manual, but it's a complete joke and is a real sore spot. Can you put a price on the good will lost because of this? I can't, but I can tell you that had they made a manual equal to Combat Mission, it would be a non issue.

All I'm saying is that companies should do the right thing, and expecting people to pay extra to get a manual printed is not right. Take it for what it's worth, but I'll wager the next time Matrix publishes a wargame, the manual will be on the disc and people will buy it anyway. What a load of crap.

gus · Post by **gus** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 6:00 am

Hey Joe,

When game companies first started putting the manual on disk instead of shipping a hard copy I was a bit PO'ed too but I have grown to like the idea as it does have advantages. The most important of theseIMO is that the digital manual can be updated while the printed manual cannot. Matrix has a fine reputation of customer support and I am sure this will continue.

Other advantages of the .pdf is that it is more readily searchable and it doesn't cost you a penny more to have it in color, most manuals today are B/W.

The only real disadvantage is portability and after the first few weeks this should really not be an issue.

As for Battlefront, I love them and their games to death but their manuals are nothing to brag about. I have CMBO, CMBB and while I have no complaints about their games the creation of great manuals is not their strong suit

One peeve that I do have about the new austerity in PC game publishing at large is that fewer and fewer companies are providing jewel cases for their CD's. This is a trend that I would like to see reversed.

-g

e_barkmann · Post by **e_barkmann** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 9:52 am

I am sick of manuals. By the time I receive a game, the 1st patch is out, and the manual is outdated. And will those companies issue updates?

My CMBO, CMBB and AA manuals are propping up various bits of hardware around the house.

That's my opinion

Cheers Chris

edit: I re-read this and it looks like I'm bashing BFC. Nothing could be further from the truth, I love their games - I just find the manuals of little use once the game has been patched.

David Heath · Post by **David Heath** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 10:22 am

Hi Uncle Joe

First everyone has the right to speak their minds here and Uncle Joe is no exception. I would like to make some points without saying another company doing it. I like to give you our reasons and if we don't agree then we don't.

Let me also say that I am a fan of Battlefront's games. Battlefront can afford to print large manuals because they do not also print boxes. Remember only after the games were selling for some time did they make a box version and are now selling it in stores. For years there games only sold online and so they did not need any boxes.

We wanted to be in the store selling games and the cost is a big factor. Wargames unlike other games have very large manuals and the costs to print these bigger manuals are not cheap. We wanted to be free to write detail manuals and update them as we went along.

We then went and wrote extended tutorials (Korsun is a perfect example of this) and printed those. The detail manual can be fully searched and updated. The Kinkos part of this was nothing more then for customers who wanted the printed manual could order it.

"Joss" Osborne · Post by **"Joss" Osborne** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 10:45 am

The other issue to understand is how the retailers have driven the companies to the smaller boxes (smaller boxes.....market more games per foot of shelf space).

With this move it's almost impossible to put a quality manual in such a small box. (Check out the Microsoft manuals for CFS3 and Flight Simulator 2004 and Freelancer)....

I'm not saying it's good, but it is what it is. I actually prefer the .pdf versions for what's been already said: it's searchable. It can be updated by Matrix with ease (including version/patch updates) and redistributed over the Net (try that with a printed manual). I have printed out the Korsun Manual--- it didn't stress my printer and I have an older HP 932.....

If you know how to operate the print function in Adobe Reader you can also just print out certain pages if you don't want the whole manual, and you can print in grayscale if you don't want your color toner to get sucked out.

One could say that the alternative is to charge $60 per game and include a large manual, but with the size constarints on box size even that might not be an option.

As far as I'm concerned.... Matrix---just keep the quality wargames coming.....

Matthew Urch · Post by **Matthew Urch** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 12:56 pm

I just wanted to through in my 2 cents. I think not having a printed manual is a good thing. Its just a waste of paper and space. We accept the wargame is computerised - so why no tthe manual? Pdfs are easy to read and search - they don't get lost or have coffee stains on them. If you like to read printed manuals you have that option. But for me no printed manual is good.

Matthew Urch

U2 · Post by U2 » Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:36 pm

I have no need for printed manuals. I play a game without even reading the manaul and after I while I have identified 2-3 items I don't understand and check in the manual...after that it collects dust so eventhough I dont like PDF manuals it's so much better.

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 2:56 pm

Yup, the only time the PDF manuals are a b*tch is when playing the tutorials. Man, that takes time.

Then again, printing out those pages relating to that part doesn't take too much ink.

elmo3 · Post by **elmo3** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:03 pm

For KP the tutorial _is_ the printed manual. Very nice.

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:41 pm

Originally posted by elmo3
For KP the tutorial _is_ the printed manual. Very nice.

Muahahaaa, well serves me right for not having the game yet.

I was referring to "other" games...

Great!

Marc von Martial · Post by **Marc von Martial** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 4:14 pm

I was referring to "other" games...

That are?

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 4:43 pm

Originally posted by Marc Schwanebeck
That are?

The freebies: SP:WAW and TAO2

Not easy to ship a manual with something that you download. I hope I got my point through anyway; pdf manuals are fine with me.

Sonny · Post by **Sonny** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:07 pm

Originally posted by gus
........................

One peeve that I do have about the new austerity in PC game publishing at large is that fewer and fewer companies are providing jewel cases for their CD's. This is a trend that I would like to see reversed.

-g

Yeah, another cost cutting trend to squeeze more out of the bottom line. Don't like it either. Guess I gotta go get some more jewel cases.

sol_invictus · Post by **sol_invictus** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 6:45 pm

Well I guess I must jump in here and mouth off too. I would also like there to be a printed manual and jewel case and pay a bit more for the game; but I understand the reasons that this is not done. I don't really like it, but understand it. I guess the Kinko deal is a fair compromise.

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 7:48 pm

What marketing genius names their business "Kinko" anyway... :p

/ooops offtopic

willgamer · Post by **willgamer** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:01 am

My 2 cents is that Matrix has hit it out of the ballpark with the pdf manual but printed tutorial approach!

I could begin playing the tutorial immediately and it's my choice to print, use Kinkos, or just task switch when needed.

I hope this becomes the standard.

What a load of crap

What a load of crap

Re: What a load of crap

Re: Re: What a load of crap

No printed manual good