reaction to playing against the Russian AI

coach3play4 · Post by **coach3play4** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 8:48 pm

I completed a full game against the Russian AI.
Please note that I don't play a smart game - I try to make historical type moves, and limit myself to making moves that a commander might make, rather than moves to beat a game.
With that in mind there is no doubt that the game played by the AI is very good. It went for the encirclement, isolated units and meet the counterattack. I even had to retreat, basically giving up any chance for relief. I did not see any way to escape units from the pocket - so many just sat by the end of the game. The russian AI eliminated 59 units, to my 9, and held 55 objectives to my 35. I held Korsun to the end, and did acheive a 973 point victory. There may be some tweaking here, i was pretty much overwhelmed, and any commander would have felt a loss, rather than a point victory as found in this game.
Clearly you can hold Korsun to the end with the SS units against the AI, I'd be surprised if anyone couldnt. But in view of the isolation and failure of the counterattack, I was doomed.
My test is can I play a fun , realistic type military game against the AI and the verdict for me for Korsun is YES!

brent_2 · Post by **brent_2** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 9:23 pm

seconded

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 5:01 am

I'm glad to hear there's some form of point system, because games where one side has a tremendous advantage often leads to boredom, and that's precisely why I didn't buy the game when I first saw it. OTOH, the Bulge has both sides with a considerable advantage at different times, so that helped me to buy it a little.

The main reason I bought it, however, was that I knew it would play on an XP, and the only game I have that can even loosely be considered a wargame that works out-of-the-box on an XP is CIV3 (and boy does it work on an XP!). I'm so busy playing CIV3 with a huge map and the computer turns going quickly, I may never brace going through the KP tutorial;). I have given KP a once over, and it's obvious there's a good deal of learning needed.

Huskalator · Post by **Huskalator** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 7:13 am

Personally I think the Russian AI needs some tweeking.

I'm a newbie to the Decisive Battles system. I completed the tutorial(excellent), played the 1st Ukranian front scenario, then played the full Korsun Pocket scenario and trounced the Russians. I quit at turn 38 because I was not even close to forming the pocket and it didn't look like I was going to need to anytime soon.

Maybe this can be attributed to the simplicity of the rules and the thorough tutorial but I was a bit dissapointed that I could basically go in as a newb and hold the line well. The Russian AI isn't aggressive enough IMO. The AI spends more time shifting around units within its own lines than advancing.

Also, from what I noticed during my linited play was that the AI doesn't attack in several spots at once. Many times I did feel like the Russians were about to break through but I brought some elite divisions to bear on the break through and it was halted. I think the Russian's biggest advantage is the fact that they can overwhelm the Germans by attacking in many spots. Pound for pound the Germans have better units but they can't plug every hole. The AI does nothing to exploit this.

Its not a bad AI by any means, but it needs some work.

Crimguy · Post by **Crimguy** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 9:58 am

Originally posted by Deep Breakfast
Also, from what I noticed during my linited play was that the AI doesn't attack in several spots at once. Many times I did feel like the Russians were about to break through but I brought some elite divisions to bear on the break through and it was halted. I think the Russian's biggest advantage is the fact that they can overwhelm the Germans by attacking in many spots. Pound for pound the Germans have better units but they can't plug every hole. The AI does nothing to exploit this.

Its not a bad AI by any means, but it needs some work.

I share your view of the AI. I've found that it does a great job of exploiting holes in the line where it can get to vulnerable units (supply trucks and artie), but seems to fall into a bit of indecisiveness at times. I'm currently playing the 1st Ukranian scenario as the Russians and the Ardennes scenario as the Americans. I've got a nice break in the German line that I'm packing with my armor and infantry. The Germans in the north had the opportunity to crush my northern front and essentially run wild behind my lines, but they chose instead to move troops south en masse. However, just by doing a few feints in the north, they come running right back. Either strategy has merit for the Germans. Running around accomplishes nothing. If my Northern breakthrough pans out, I might create a "pocket" of my own!

OTOH, the AI had the sense to retreat and pick a new line to defend along the river - they just don't seem to be able to commit one way or another. Maybe there should be greater discrepencies in point values for objectives, thereby giving the AI more of a sense of priority?

Snigbert · Post by **Snigbert** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:36 am

Maybe this can be attributed to the simplicity of the rules and the thorough tutorial but I was a bit dissapointed that I could basically go in as a newb and hold the line well. The Russian AI isn't aggressive enough IMO. The AI spends more time shifting around units within its own lines than advancing.

I'll third that opinion. I think the AI does a great job exploiting weaknesses, and using multiple attacks to wear down and then destroy lone units in a single turn. However, after playing the game once through with the Germans to learn the system, I managed to stop the Soviets cold my second game. It's around turn 20 and the Western front hasn't gained a thing while the Eastern front is stopped in it's tracks before Schpola (sp?).

I need a human opponent!

U2, hurry up and get your copy so we can throw down!

Fred98 · Post by **Fred98** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:39 am

There are always the options that give the AI an advantage.

If you restrict your supply and enhance his, it makes you work harder.

It doesn't make the AI better, rather you have to use more skill to defeat the AI.

It increases the challenge.

Snigbert · Post by **Snigbert** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:04 am

I agree, but I prefer not having to alter the reality of the situation to make it more challenging. I just want a better opponent. I know, I'm picky.

I dont like making artificial rules that make my life tougher just because I am smarter than my opponent (in this case the AI).

Nickel · Post by **Nickel** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 6:05 am

Joe 98 has got the right idea, IMO. I played a lot of TAO2 although not by PBEM. You get to know the nuiances of the AI and you will need to give the AI a little help. I do share the opinion that the AI does do a little bit too much marching back and forth. I understand that there are a lot of ongoing computations. How many people would play the game very long if it kicked our butt at the basic settings right out of the box?

Crimguy · Post by **Crimguy** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:34 am

Originally posted by Nickel
Joe 98 has got the right idea, IMO. I played a lot of TAO2 although not by PBEM. You get to know the nuiances of the AI and you will need to give the AI a little help. I do share the opinion that the AI does do a little bit too much marching back and forth. I understand that there are a lot of ongoing computations. How many people would play the game very long if it kicked our butt at the basic settings right out of the box?

I would. That's what I'm accustomed to human opponents doing to me

However, many more novice players probably get a real challenge their first couple times out as it currently is. For me, I haven't found myself in fear of a defeat, but I haven't crushed the AI yet (but it looks like my trime in the 1st Ukranian is paying off).

Crimguy · Post by **Crimguy** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:49 am

As an update to the AI, maybe they're not so dumb after all. I just finished 1st Ukranian as the Russians. I did a central thrust, and by turn 5 was 2/3 of the way to Zvenigorodka. At Turn 3 I did a feint in the northern sector, which caused a few turns of indeciseiveness, and I was very pleased to watch the Germans shift units north. They also conducted a nice retreat during turns 5-10, blowing any bridge they could find in all sectors. However, by Turn 10 they had shifted most units to the south, while conducting a bit of a hasty retreat, and their reinforcements poured north-east. To make matters worse, my supply got completely bogged down in the thaw, and the above-mentioned reinforcements did a fine counterattack on my right flank, taking out a supply truck (!). The tip of my thrust was without supplies, and most of my units were still making their way past Tichinovka. However I decided to take what I could. I sent the 20th and 22nd Guards Tank regiments onward to Morenzy, which was taken at Turn 12 or so. Then they moved onward to Olashana, but sadly were out of steam. A last ditch effort to take the stronghold there rolled me a 1 with 1-1 odds. I did not take the town, and what looked like a glorious time for my comrades ended in a draw with 50 points to the Red Menace.

Lessons learned? Guard your supplies with yourl life, and make sure there is a clear path from the trucks to your units. Fix them bridges!!