Human wave failed attempt #9

[baloo7777]

This scenario is now deleted from my map folder.

Does deleteimg this scenario allow you to go on to the next scenario in the campaign?

[Barthheart]

ORIGINAL: baloo7777

This scenario is now deleted from my map folder.

Does deleteimg this scenario allow you to go on to the next scenario in the campaign?

Doubt it....

[jonj01]

"There is a chance that a Hero is created during
play whenever a Squad or Half-squad (even if Shaken) rolls a
1 during a Damage Check caused by enemy
fire." LnL manual

put an 50% chance on that and you have a 1/12 or 8.3% chance of generating a hero every time a soviet unit takes a damage check.

So every time you do a damage check on any unit...ANY multiman UNIT...you have about a 9% chance to create a hero. Assuming you break or cause damage to a unit about half the time you get a damage check and there are 44 russian squads in this scenario, about 15% will rally, and another 15% will turn into a half squad. Thats about 120 damage checks...doing the math...it produces 10 freakin heros for the russians...10 heros...with average rolls.

And Sometimes you dont just have to shake them. 4 times I've played this scenario, a hero has been generated that has the "one more time" skill card. This hero magically rallies almost every shaken squad on the map. The numbers in this scenario are messed up. Take a look at the map in the scenario editor. There's almost 50 russians squads (3 of which are assault squads with a morale of 6 and firepower 2 and can assault move)4 leaders, 2 heavy machine guns, a light machine gun and a nurse AND 6-10 HEROS VS 4 squads, 4 machine guns, 2 leaders and a hero. Those are the numbers... 10 to 1
[/b]
Seems balanced to me....if this was a multiperson game...I know which side I'm taking.

[jonj01]

ORIGINAL: baloo7777

Does deleteimg this scenario allow you to go on to the next scenario in the campaign?

Just go into the scenario editor, load GCamp03 (from the map folder)...hit f2....and place whatever extra help you want on the board...save the file under GCamp03...then reload the campaign from the end of "Open(ing) the Door" and there you have a more balanced scenario, regardless of whatever extra help you placed...your arm will get tired before you place anywhere near as many squads as the russians have.

This is a game for enjoyment not punishment.

[baloo7777]

ORIGINAL: jonj01

ORIGINAL: baloo7777

Does deleteimg this scenario allow you to go on to the next scenario in the campaign?

Just go into the scenario editor, load GCcamp03...hit f2....and place whatever extra help you want on the board......

Thanks, just wondered. Think I'll just go back to playing the SP scenarios. I tried this scenario on intro level about 5 or 6 times without success and have lost interest.

[jonj01]

ORIGINAL: baloo7777




Thanks, just wondered. Think I'll just go back to playing the SP scenarios. I tried this scenario on intro level about 5 or 6 times without success and have lost interest.

This is why you don't configure a 10 to 1 odds scenario...people get frustrated and lose interest. This guy is going back to playing Steel Panthers...

[Barthheart]

ORIGINAL: jonj01

...
about 15% will rally, and another 15% will turn into a half squad.
...

Not sure what you are saying here or where these percentages come from... if it turns into a 1/2 squad, it's still shaken until rallied.

Any squad that is shaken can only rally if it's with a leader, nurse or hero. There are 4 leaders, a nurse and any heroes that get created.
In all the games of this scenario I've played, and that's a lot because I was in the alpha and beta testing, the nurse is barely effective.
The leaders usually stay near the back so the only way squads can get rallied is to move back to them.
A leader can only rally 3 squads per turn. Not all the leaders start on the map on turn 1.
If a leader dares to come forward then you try to kill it. If it's on a stack of shaken units use your hero to run over and melee them... they will all die.

If you just shake most of the squads and not try to kill them there aren't that many that are going to pose much of a problem.
On average I get about 4 heroes generated in a scenario. I think I saw 6 in on go through... and I lost that one.

Not trying to argue with you, just trying to point out that the scenario is doable, and deleting it is a bit un-reasonable.
No it's not balanced as a two player scenario.
It's setup as a single player scenario with the Russians rushing headlong into your gun fire.

Yes the "One more time" skill card is tough and I usually lose when it comes up, but I've only seen it in this scenario a couple of times.... maybe because I don't see that many heroes...

[jonj01]

If you let the heros live...you generate less..as the scenario has a limit of 2 on the board at any time(i think). I dont fire on shaken squads unless there is a good squad in the same hex. And my arty is really effective as a pop them from the get go...although I might change this tactic as it always generates at least a hero when I attack 3 full stacks of them.

You yourself Barthheart said it takes a few times to get past this scenario. And you are a A-B tester.

And the fact you can do everything right and lose due to a single skill card is plain bull.

[baloo7777]

ORIGINAL: jonj01

people get frustrated and lose interest. This guy is going back to playing Steel Panthers...

I meant I was going Back to playing Single Player scenarios, and not the campaign ones as the german player (did not mean steel panthers). I am merely frustrated with my inability to get past this scenario and thereby continue with the campaign game. I still enjoy the game system immensely, and look forward to user created scenarios. Would be nice to have a way to move forward with the campain even if you lose a scenario.

[Barthheart]

Have you guys tried the Russian campaign?

[Erik Rutins]

Hi guys,

I advise playing everything through on "Intro" difficulty first. Human wave is a hard scenario until you get the hang of it. Once you do, it is possible to beat it reliably and those lessons help you in other scenarios.

The advice above from Barthheart and Mark is good advice. Use the mortars and the Slayer carefully, they are the keys to the scenario.

We toned this down a few times during beta testing. While I'm sure Mark is loathe to revisit it again, I'm sure he is taking all the comments here into account.

Regards,

- Erik

[vonRocko]

Please don't tone it down. It took me eight tries, but the first five I was using the wrong tactics. once I got some advice from Barthheart, It only took a few more attempts. You do need some luck however, but once you got the right tactic you should be able to win.

[mh1066]

The problem is not that we dislike losing (heck, losing can even be fun if it is a well designed scenario), but rather the inability to move onto the next scenario. This simply is not a very fun battle to play much less replay several times. It lacks true tactical choices, and in the end feels more like an Xbox console game boss fight where the designer just throws more zombies at the player rather than a serious wargame. Either just unlock ALL the campaign scenarios at the outset, or allow for the option to continue on regardless of the outcome of the previous battle. Either one renders this issue mute.

[baloo7777]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi guys,

I advise playing everything through on "Intro" difficulty first. Human wave is a hard scenario until you get the hang of it. Once you do, it is possible to beat it reliably and those lessons help you in other scenarios.

The advice above from Barthheart and Mark is good advice. Use the mortars and the Slayer carefully, they are the keys to the scenario.

We toned this down a few times during beta testing. While I'm sure Mark is loathe to revisit it again, I'm sure he is taking all the comments here into account.

Regards,

- Erik

I played up to this point on normal, then after a couple trys I switced to intro. I played some scenarios very well with only one attempt on the first one (and some luck with the little girl). I thoroughly enjoy and will continue to play this game. I am playing the russian campaign as we speak and am onto the scenario where they defend a factory and some railyards (right after the scenario escorting some civilians to safety). So I have had some successes on normal level. I don't enjoy having to play the german scenario over and over and not being able to move on. That's why I am going back to playing single player scenarios and not get stuck playing one scenario as a if trying to solve a puzzle.

[jonj01]

I'm not usually such a cry baby about a scenario or a game with a AI opponent. I had the scenario beat twice (once on hard and once on normal) until a hero appeared with the "one more time" skill card.

Game over both times. I have now beat it on intro settings twice, but I have never been an intro kind of guy.

Hats off to the developers for the limit on heros generated for the soviets in the scenario. This limit keeps the map from being filled with many russian heros. I've played it half a dozen or so times and never had less than 5 heros generated. A key is not waste fire killing them...you will just get more.

The "one more time" skill card is a pain in the neck. It basically ends the game there just as if you let Wurtz get killed. You might want to remove this skill card from the scenario.

[markhwalker]

This simply is not a very fun battle to play much less replay several times. It lacks true tactical choices, and in the end feels more like an Xbox console game boss fight where the designer just throws more zombies at the player rather than a serious wargame.

There are plenty of tactical choices, you probably just aren't familiar enough with the game to take them. The scenario is hard, it was meant to be hard, but with the right tactics it can be regularily beaten. You can't skip scenarios, because of the core units you must carry and improve through the campaign. If you could skip, players might jump ahead to campaign scenario 6, get their butt kicked because it is unbalanced, and then complain that this isn't a serious war game.

serious wargame

Very serious, there isn't a joke in the game, but I think I'll add a couple of one-liners in the next iteration.

[cerberus77]

longtime buyer of the lock and load franchise...awesome alternative to ASL as i just havent had the time to play ASL in decades (literally).

this pc import is very slick. Thank you for your time and effort as the quality is always top notch.

[Skanvak]

I am happy to see that other people feel the same about the campaign. I think this is a difficult issue because, for one, I like to play without bonus to either side (I like toplay true to the rules). But it is true that on hard, the difficulty is high. It look like a puzzle game. Though I love the idea of experience with some core unit, I do find frustating to have to play the scenario again and again. With experience, the campaign could have been more dinamyc (like the panzer general campaign).

About the machine gun, I find that as long it does not fire, it does interdict, but once fired, it is a bit gamey to pass near it. Whereas the slayer card is overpowerful, making a single guys with its submachinegun stronger than a MG42 squad. But from RO2 expérience, you cannot keep firing your machinegun all the time. At some point you need to recharge and that takes times. But as said the problem is the difference between the Slayer abilities and the MG42 one shot only abilty.

And yes, Heroes are a bit too strong and come back too often! The idea of heroes is nice but they should be limited in absolute (ie you can have 2 heroes in a scenario, if one die you cannot get it back) because a heroes is stronger than a squad, so this is a random factor than unbalanced scenario with lots of units (and make me feel like playing WH40K).

[Tim James]

ORIGINAL: mh1066

The problem is not that we dislike losing (heck, losing can even be fun if it is a well designed scenario), but rather the inability to move onto the next scenario. This simply is not a very fun battle to play much less replay several times. It lacks true tactical choices, and in the end feels more like an Xbox console game boss fight where the designer just throws more zombies at the player rather than a serious wargame. Either just unlock ALL the campaign scenarios at the outset, or allow for the option to continue on regardless of the outcome of the previous battle. Either one renders this issue mute.

This is correct. I learned the lesson of Human Wave on the second try (though I still didn't win). But as a working adult with kids, I don't have time to play a campaign scenario 9 times. I'd like to move on and see the rest of the content.

God bless you for designing the scenario. I definitely wouldn't change it. But it would be nice to accomodate multiple playstyles with a more flexible campaign metagame. I like the idea of providing an option to move on after a defeat. This reasonably preserves your campaign storyline. Then in the GUI, track which scenarios are finished and which ones are "incomplete." We can always go back to fill in the blanks.

Without a lot of time right now, perhaps I should put the campaign on the back burner and play some individual scenarios. I still recommend thinking about the campaign metagame to see if you get any great ideas for this issue.

[Dino_SWE]

I just beat this scenario on normal. The key strategy is to shake enemy units at minimal cost.
Select as few soldiers as you can for opportunity fire. Once an enemy counter is shaken, avoid shooting at it. Let it retreat in peace and focus on shaking the remaining good ordered units as they try to move.

I also find it best to fall back with the western flank on turn 1. Set up Frei in the lodge beside the MG.

In my previous attempts I spent actions on killing already shaken units, and it bit me in the ass.


Awesome game btw, the soundtrack is gold


On a side note: I found the game (and the 3rd mission in particular) become much more pleasant to play if you enable auto-end impulses in the game options. I also enabled scrolling dice results and decreased the message time to 3.
It really improves the flow of the game. Happy hunting!