Elmer and amphibious invasions

[Erik2]

In a couple of my scenarios I have difficulty forcing Elmer to invade by sea, the units just sit on their bums digging in.
I have tried all the usual tricks, formations/units on ignore losses, first objective on the invasion beach, aggressive/berserk strategy, plenty of seatransports, unobstructed route to invasion beach.
The funny thing is that in two of the scenarios the longest route is about 30 hexes, Elmer invades in one (Torch) but not the other (an experimental unpublished Tarawa).
In a third scenario (Malta) Elmer will perform all airborne invasions, but none of the seaborne.
Is there something I may have overlooked?

Erik

[ColinWright]

ORIGINAL: Erik Nygaard

In a couple of my scenarios I have difficulty forcing Elmer to invade by sea, the units just sit on their bums digging in.
I have tried all the usual tricks, formations/units on ignore losses, first objective on the invasion beach, aggressive/berserk strategy, plenty of seatransports, unobstructed route to invasion beach.
The funny thing is that in two of the scenarios the longest route is about 30 hexes, Elmer invades in one (Torch) but not the other (an experimental unpublished Tarawa).
In a third scenario (Malta) Elmer will perform all airborne invasions, but none of the seaborne.
Is there something I may have overlooked?

Erik

Elmer doesn't trust the Italian Navy.

[ColinWright]

It'd be good if this problem could be solved, though. One could make quite a Med '43-44 scenario with an Allied P.O. likely to pounce anywhere from Rhodes to Southern France.

[a white rabbit]

..take a look at the latest, updated to t3, English Civil War scen, for whatever reasons Elmer's really active with sea movement and so surprise landings for the Royalists. Some are units that reconstituted in Ireland returning home but others are genuine invasion type moves involving either single units or stacks of units attempting to land at either ports or beach hexes ..

..to save you having to play it, do you want me to send the various SAVs i've got ?

[Erik2]

I got one email from jmlima suggesting the invasion hexes must be below of the starting hex and that movemet must be made in one turn.
From the screenshot you'll see that even moving the start/invading hexes really close doesn't help.
I'm certain this is a bug.

[sPzAbt653]

I had been tinkering with Singapore 42, it is a small, fast scenario where the Japanese make amphibious assaults. But Elmer won't do them, so I was trying different things to see if he would (in Olympic 45 he does). In the screenshot you can see that I finally got him to do it. In the original scenario the Japanese units start on the coast hexes at the upper left of the map. I moved them from there to areas at the eastern and southern map edges (not in the shot, but not too far away). I did not put supply points on these new start hexes, as I thought this might encourage Elmer to not stay there (Olympic also has no supply points in the start locations). On turn one Elmer moved them all back to the original start area. There are no objectives there, all objective 1's are located on the invasion beaches. So why he moved there may be it is the only place that is in supply for the Japanese side. So I removed all the 'anchorage' hexes that were there originally (as now seen in the screenshot) so he couldn't go back there and voila! Elmer goes storming ashore!
Erik, looking at your screenshot above, it looks like you've done about the same thing I have. Maybe the units from Red Beach 1 won't move to Objective 1 because there is no anchorage there? The only other suggestion would be to knock the starting locations down from three hexes to single hexes. It worked when I did it in Singapore, but Olympic does have similar start areas to what you have, except they are located on the map edge.
It's probably been suggested before, but if initial deployment could be set to include embarked units, then scenarios might be able to have units that start, or enter, in deep water. Then they most likely would head straight for the beach.
Cheers!

[a white rabbit]

..mm, ok, one turn that fits the ECW scen..

[jmlima]

ORIGINAL: Erik Nygaard

I got one email from jmlima suggesting the invasion hexes must be below of the starting hex and that movemet must be made in one turn.
From the screenshot you'll see that even moving the start/invading hexes really close doesn't help.
I'm certain this is a bug.
...

Erik, if you have no harbour facilities then the units would have to stop for a turn and land on the next turn , that does not count as making the movement in one turn. In my experience unless they have to arrive and land in the SAME turn.

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: Erik Nygaard

I got one email from jmlima suggesting the invasion hexes must be below of the starting hex and that movemet must be made in one turn.
From the screenshot you'll see that even moving the start/invading hexes really close doesn't help.
I'm certain this is a bug.

Erik, are you using shallow water hexes in the path? That would prevent Elmer from finding his way, since he is not going to search over impassable terrain. Also, why are you using exclusion zones in the departure areas? That might be causing some problems, as well.

[Erik2]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
Erik, are you using shallow water hexes in the path? That would prevent Elmer from finding his way, since he is not going to search over impassable terrain. Also, why are you using exclusion zones in the departure areas? That might be causing some problems, as well.

No shallow hexes. An earlier version of the scenario did not use exclusion zones (I'm using them to prevent the US units re-entering the starting locations).

jmlima/sPzAbt653: In my Torch scenario the Allies succesfully invade non-port/beach hexes so this should not be what's causing the problems in Tarawa.

Another funny thing, a couple of US destroyers have the Japanese ship at Central Pier as their first and only objective location.
However, Elmer always move the DDs to the right map-edge. Could this be caused by the US ships having to find their way inbetween the land units' starting locations?

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: Erik Nygaard

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
Erik, are you using shallow water hexes in the path? That would prevent Elmer from finding his way, since he is not going to search over impassable terrain. Also, why are you using exclusion zones in the departure areas? That might be causing some problems, as well.

No shallow hexes. An earlier version of the scenario did not use exclusion zones (I'm using them to prevent the US units re-entering the starting locations).

What is the light-blue, swamp-like terrain in the picture with all the escarpments in it?

[JAMiAM]

Also...have you tried making the invading forces Obj 1 at the jump off point, while Obj 2 is at the beachhead? What formation orders do the formations have?

[Erik2]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

ORIGINAL: Erik Nygaard

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
Erik, are you using shallow water hexes in the path? That would prevent Elmer from finding his way, since he is not going to search over impassable terrain. Also, why are you using exclusion zones in the departure areas? That might be causing some problems, as well.

No shallow hexes. An earlier version of the scenario did not use exclusion zones (I'm using them to prevent the US units re-entering the starting locations).

What is the light-blue, swamp-like terrain in the picture with all the escarpments in it?

Marsh terrain with a coloured twist, I use this to simulate the reef about 500 yards off shore where the Marines had to debark due to the shallow depth.

[Erik2]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Also...have you tried making the invading forces Obj 1 at the jump off point, while Obj 2 is at the beachhead? What formation orders do the formations have?

I have tried to set the first objective at the marsh/reef, ie the first onland hex. This is per Ralph's earlier suggestion.
I've also tried putting it on the actual coast/land.
I'll try putting it at the jump-off location.
Thanks.

Edit: Sorry, no fix.
Also, forgot to say that the formations are on Attack orders/ignore losses

[Erik2]

Just for the hell of it I added beach/port terrain to the first objective hexes.
And what do you know, Elmer invades like crazy.....
The only problem now is that the Japanese are unable to shell the Marines while they're still embarked since the invaders move directly into port.
I still think there's something buggy here, but at least it is possible to play against the PO.

[ColinWright]

ORIGINAL: Erik Nygaard

Just for the hell of it I added beach/port terrain to the first objective hexes.
And what do you know, Elmer invades like crazy.....
The only problem now is that the Japanese are unable to shell the Marines while they're still embarked since the invaders move directly into port.
I still think there's something buggy here, but at least it is possible to play against the PO.

Just for fun...

Try making the offshore hexes dry land, putting in ports, and then pouring back in the water. Of course, the program will tell you the port disappeared -- but see what happens.

[sPzAbt653]

ORIGINAL: Erik Nygaard

The only problem now is that the Japanese are unable to shell the Marines while they're still embarked since the invaders move directly into port.

Something else to try - putting some coast artillery units in the 'port' hexes (to represent pre-registered artillery). This might make the assault units take some casulaties 'getting onto the reef'. Or he may even hesitate for a turn before attempting to come in.

Glad to hear Elmer has finally got moving!

[a white rabbit]

..totally off thread but..
 
..ok James, unless we get a specific " vs Elmer scen designer"  section, just how the h*ll do i find this thread in the future, and any of the other "vs Elmer" threads..
 
..we need, on this board, a dedicated vs Elmer scenario design area, the thinking is not the same as in a vs Human scen, the cheat techniques are no-way the same and the problems to be solved aren't the same..
 
..come on Matrix, help us to help you to help us, even if all we get is that cupboard at the dark end of the corridor where you currently store the brooms and mops..

[a white rabbit]

..cute..

..= nice lateral thinking..

[ColinWright]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

ORIGINAL: Erik Nygaard

...Or he may even hesitate for a turn before attempting to come in.

Glad to hear Elmer has finally got moving!

Along those lines...

How about making the distance Elmer has to travel so great that he can't quite get ashore in his first move?