why do air units rest so much?

[Adam Rinkleff]

So I have an air unit, and I set formation supply to 100, and formation prof to 100, and unit supply to 100, and unit prof to 100, and unit readi to 100... and the planes fly around for only like a little bit, and maybe someone gets shot down, and they all go on strike, change their orders, and decide to rest for as long as they can until I manually step in an order them back to work. Is that supposed to be happening? It is a very annoying thing to have happen. Can I have a button declaring that all pilots who decide to rest will be summarily shot?

[a white rabbit]

..10% losses are considered insupportable for air units, they're just fragile little babies

[ColinWright]

If you're talking about the air assistant, I'd like to know how to get the damned thing to stay off. It's tedious having to check each round to be sure the units I set to rest are still resting.

[Adam Rinkleff]

It's tedious having to check each round to be sure the units I set to rest are still resting.

Well, I got the opposite problem; I want the damn planes to be on air superiority, and I don't care how tired they are, but they just want to rest rest rest all day and night until I tell them to get back to work.

[ColinWright]

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

It's tedious having to check each round to be sure the units I set to rest are still resting.

Well, I got the opposite problem; I want the damn planes to be on air superiority, and I don't care how tired they are, but they just want to rest rest rest all day and night until I tell them to get back to work.

I've had that problem with employees myself. 'What the fuck? Barely eighty hours this week and you're tired?'

Are you sure you're making historically reasonable demands of these units? The game is supposed to simulate units behaving as they do in real life -- which may or may not coincide with how you want them to behave.

Note that if you push your air units too hard, they'll evaporate or go into reorganization. It's not pretty -- but try giving them high unit proficiency and setting them to 'ignore losses' if you really want them to give their all.

[desert]

Well, if units are on air superiority, they engage enemy planes(also on AS?). This causes losses, sort of like combat but without a report. If a unit takes too many losses or perhaps some other random chance based on prof and supply, they will go into reorganization, which can take quite a while.

[Adam Rinkleff]

Are you sure you're making historically reasonable demands of these units?

Yes, I am; that's the problem with this forum, is all of you think TOAW is historically accurate (those who don't have long since moved on to other stuff), and you assume it's just a perfect little engine, and that anyone who complains otherwise is simply too ignorant to understand the historical basis for all the wonderful facts of TOAW. I know goddamn well that there is no reason for my units to be resting; if they want to send me a memo and beg for a rest, fine, but meanwhile they need to get those planes up in the air and actually make a contribution. I have a master's degree in military history, and I know goddamn well that real air forces keep slugging it out unlike these babied units.

If a unit takes too many losses or perhaps some other random chance based on prof and supply, they will go into reorganization, which can take quite a while.

No kidding desert? I don't want to be rude, but maybe you should just stop trying to respond to what I write, because everything you say is some really lame attempt to explain the pedantically obvious. Yes, I know that a unit which takes losses has a chance to go into reorganization for a while... the problem is that it goes into reorganization too easily, and for too long.

[desert]

and I know goddamn well that real air forces keep slugging it out unlike these babied units.

 
Time-period specific, perhaps?

[Adam Rinkleff]

Time-period specific, perhaps?

Is there a point here?

[desert]

Not anymore -you don't seem to want to hear it.

[Adam Rinkleff]

Not anymore -you don't seem to want to hear it.

Yer right, I don't; it doesn't really matter what time period my scenarios are simulating, the fact of the matter is that the program crams Norms personal combat equations down everyone's throat, and no amount of adjusting proficiency, supply, AP, DF, or anything seems to change the root equations. Those of you who think otherwise are simply too inexperienced and unfamiliar with the program, regardless of how incessantly you proclaim its wonderful historical accuracy. There is only ONE question being asked at this thread, and that is how to stop air units from spontaneously deciding to go on vacation; if it can't be done, then TOAW has a problem which needs to be fixed. I'm not at all interested in hearing how justified the current situation is, because I know better.

[Veers]

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

Are you sure you're making historically reasonable demands of these units?

Yes, I am; that's the problem with this forum, is all of you think TOAW is historically accurate (those who don't have long since moved on to other stuff), and you assume it's just a perfect little engine, and that anyone who complains otherwise is simply too ignorant to understand the historical basis for all the wonderful facts of TOAW. I know goddamn well that there is no reason for my units to be resting; if they want to send me a memo and beg for a rest, fine, but meanwhile they need to get those planes up in the air and actually make a contribution. I have a master's degree in military history, and I know goddamn well that real air forces keep slugging it out unlike these babied units.

If a unit takes too many losses or perhaps some other random chance based on prof and supply, they will go into reorganization, which can take quite a while.

No kidding desert? I don't want to be rude, but maybe you should just stop trying to respond to what I write, because everything you say is some really lame attempt to explain the pedantically obvious. Yes, I know that a unit which takes losses has a chance to go into reorganization for a while... the problem is that it goes into reorganization too easily, and for too long.

Wow...somebody needs to lay off the decaf. Adam, little rants like this are certainly not helping you. Especially against desert, who's really the only gy willing to even read the whole of your posts anymore.

I have a master's degree in military history, and I know goddamn well that real air forces keep slugging it out unlike these babied units.

Did I mention I'm the King of Canada. God bless the internet.

[Adam Rinkleff]

little rants like this are certainly not helping you.

Oh, right, because you have the power to change anything? Yah, like I might actually care what you think. If the forum is dominated by narrow-minded trolls like you, I'm not really going to care how my comments are viewed. Sorry dude, I'm not going to sit here and suck on TOAW and proclaim how great it is; it isn't that great, maybe it could be, but it's not.

[Veers]

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

little rants like this are certainly not helping you.

Oh, right, because you have the power to change anything? Yah, like I might actually care what you think. If the forum is dominated by narrow-minded trolls like you, I'm not really going to care how my comments are viewed. Sorry dude, I'm not going to sit here and suck on TOAW and proclaim how great it is; it isn't that great, maybe it could be, but it's not.

Wait, wait, wait a sec, let me get this straight. You...are calling me...a troll? [:D]

[sPzAbt653]

how to stop air units from spontaneously deciding to go on vacation

If you make the air units stay on assigned missions instead of automatically resting, then you would have to go around checking to see which units are close to evaporation or reorganisation (which affects the whole formation). So either one way or the other, you have to keep an eye on things. Or maybe I missed the point here.
Certainly in large scenarios this is a chore, but that is what large scenarios are for, to keep us occupied on many levels. Smaller scenarios only require a couple seconds to check the units. Me, I'd rather check the state of each unit so I can decide what to do with it. Typically, in the large scenario, I click the 'air briefing' button during my turn to see if my air superiority value has changed after a combat. That tells me if any of my units decided to have a siesta in the middle of the offensive, and I can order them back. It also tells me if the unit is down to 33% effectiveness and 8 out of 36 planes. I better let them rest or risk disintegration.

'No Distintegration'

[Adam Rinkleff]

Wait, wait, wait a sec, let me get this straight. You...are calling me...a troll? [:D]

Yah, I don't go to your threads, I don't follow you, I don't come find where you have been posting and try to argue -- I only respond to you when you come to a thread I started, and try to attack me. It is you who is trolling, and all I'm trying to do is engage in constructive criticism of the program. Frankly, I don't care what you think, and I'd rather you never responded to anything I wrote; your lame picture tells me all I need to know about your personality.

Certainly in large scenarios this is a chore

That's really my whole point; it is extremely annoying to have to constantly check up on the air units, and furthermore, so far as I can tell, there is no code which encourages them to return to active-duty afterwards... maybe they do that eventually, but it seems to me that once they start resting, they'll do that for the rest of the war unless I actively intervene. I understand the importance of keeping an eye on things, etc, etc, but if a unit with 100% prof, 100% supply, 100% readi, in a formation with 100% supply, 100% prof, in a force with high supply/prof will typically start resting after just a day or two of fairly low-intensity combat... well, it's not accurate. I know we don't have the equations, and so we can't talk about specific details of what is happening; however, it seems clear to me that the air units should continue with their mission, except in very rare cases of mutiny.

It's one thing to reorganize in the field while in contact with the enemy, its another thing entirely when people at an airfield refuse to start their engines. If I were a commander, I'd drive out there and order them up at gunpoint; that's the sort of ability I want TOAW to give me. Maybe in some armies a commander can't do that, but in some armies they CAN; and if TOAW wants to be realistic, then it needs to replicate that.

[Veers]

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff
Yah, I don't go to your threads, I don't follow you, I don't come find where you have been posting and try to argue -- I only respond to you when you come to a thread I started, and try to attack me. It is you who is trolling, and all I'm trying to do is engage in constructive criticism of the program. Frankly, I don't care what you think, and I'd rather you never responded to anything I wrote; your lame picture tells me all I need to know about your personality.

Attack? Attack? Adam, buddy, I haven't attacked you, all I've done is laughed at and made fun of you. There's a difference. [:D]
Oh, and by the way, it might help edjumicate you if you did actually follow another thread or two.

[Adam Rinkleff]

Attack? Attack? Adam, buddy, I haven't attacked you, all I've done is laughed at and made fun of you.

Are you seriously this immature? [:-]

[ColinWright]

...If I were a commander, I'd drive out there and order them up at gunpoint; that's the sort of ability I want TOAW to give me. Maybe in some armies a commander can't do that, but in some armies they CAN; and if TOAW wants to be realistic, then it needs to replicate that.

Yeah. This is called 'setting the unit to ignore losses.' Sometimes even this doesn't work: see the French Army Mutiny, for example. Sometimes it 'works' in the sense of the unit stumbling off and evaporating -- as with Zhukov's attempts to continue attacking in Operation Mars. Less dramatically, and more frequently, units just go through the motions. As in Grant's regiments simply raising up their muskets in the air at Cold Harbor and firing them off to simulate the 'attack' when he ordered them to renew the assault.

TOAW really is pretty realistic. At any rate, and by and large, it's better than most of your suggestions would make it. You can't order air units to fly if they haven't got petrol, or if they've expended all their bombs, or if 83% of the aircraft are unserviceable at the moment. Or to be be precise, you can order them to fly. You can order them to do anything you like. Whether anything will happen as a consequence is another matter. Hitler had this experience a lot towards the end of the war.

[Veers]

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

Attack? Attack? Adam, buddy, I haven't attacked you, all I've done is laughed at and made fun of you.

Are you seriously this immature? [:-]

Mmmaybe...[:D]