Another matrix failure

[tmoj2000]

The 2 previous games I bought at matrix simply do not work (one does not even install the other one CTDs so as to make it unplayable)

This one CTDs frequently including so far a completely reproduceable CTD at the start 4th mission of the german campaign (and there wer ea number of other CTDs as well)... Moving an air unit makes the game crash... Ergo I can only play the first 3 missions.. .Great

Other than that this game is somewhat disappointing. I have played all the games in the general series and other clones of the system. It is fascinating that the first one remains better than any of its descendants. Operation Barbarossa does not unfortunately break that trend. One would think than more than 10 years later it would be possible to come up with a variant that improved on the original (and panzer general was a mere 8 MB and never ever crashed).

Yes there is 3D but really that does not add anything and in fact diminishes the comfort of play.

Ergonomy is the major issue here:
Selecting units is sometimes a challenge especially when there is an air unit in the hex (even this was better in the original PG)
While the game highlights the hexes your units can get to, sometimes you cannot get there for unexplained reasons (even when there no ennemy units anywhere around)
When you click on engineer units to move them, about half the time they do something else instead and get frozen
VP hexes are not always clearly visible on the mini map (in scenario 2 I think I had to look over each town individually because some points were missing and were not visible on the mini map)
In PG you could easily distingish the units that were your core army and the others, that is not the case here
In PG you could also easily see which units had acted and which had not
The unit graphics (as well as the terrain graphics) are somewhat outdated
Undo icon and end of turn icon are similar.. Since there is no confirmation for end of turn, if you confuse the 2 you end up ending the turn instead

In addition to the ergonomy which makes the game not so plesant to use, the AI is really not very strong. It seems no worse, but no better than the one in PG. The main thing it knows how to do is to aggressively hunt for for your artillery units. If one of your arty units is in attack range then the AI will throw everything but the kitchen sink at it

In short this game has potential but needs work on the ergonomy and AI to make it better. And needless to say that CTDs on such a simple game are simply not acceptable

[goodwoodrw]

G'day, interesting I haven't had a CTD yet. while I think the graphics are a bit weak and the selection of units is a bit clumsy, its a bit harsh to suggest the game is a lemon. It is instantly playable and doesn't tax the brain. Quite cheap as well. I am into 4th or 5th scenario of the Barbarossa campaign, while there some frustrations the game is fun.

[gunnergoz]

With all due respect, I'd give your review and comments a little more credibility if you'd first posted your tech gripes in the Tech Support Forum and sought an solution to your problems before blanket condemning the game and the company.  And given your claim that your two other Matix games would not install on your PC, you might want to consider that the problem may well lie in your machine.  Just my opinion and no offense intended.

[critter]

ORIGINAL: gunnergoz

With all due respect, I'd give your review and comments a little more credibility if you'd first posted your tech gripes in the Tech Support Forum and sought an solution to your problems before blanket condemning the game and the company.  And given your claim that your two other Matix games would not install on your PC, you might want to consider that the problem may well lie in your machine.  Just my opinion and no offense intended.

Credibility's
Bought the game Friday. Have only tried the campaign game twice since installing. Have had no ctd's as of yet.
I own..Panzer General 1-3, Pacific General, and even have PG on my Ps2.
I have no beef with Matrix and they have always given great service any time I did have an issue.
Been playing and buying war games for 30 years.

Since the tech support has 11 problem threads 2 days on the market, almost all dealing with ctd's I'd say tomar has a valid point.
I am also dissapointed with the graphics. I read the article about the game on the wargamer. In the article they went on about the stunning tanks drawn from blue prints. On the screen its hard to tell they're tanks.
Why does it have to be so dark? Play a civilization game. They cover sight issues and you can at least see the map.
The article said It was a PG like game..Upon seeing it our first impression was Panzer General with stickmen.
While I'm sure we'll get used to them I don't like the interface buttons nearly as well as PG either.
In truth I wish I'd spent my money on something else.
Your veiws on tomars credibility's are not a deciding factor on the games future. Costumers cash is..
His and my veiws are just as valid as yours after drinking the koolaid. Just my opinion..No offense..

[Obsolete]

Tomar, I believe the problem is you may be playing some other game under the same title?  Matrix even has another game with a similar title.

For example...

In PG you could easily distingish the units that were your core army and the others, that is not the case here
In PG you could also easily see which units had acted and which had not

I just don't understand this.  During the beta I asked for a method to easily determine which units are core at a glance.  It used to be you could tell so by checking the unit properties, but we changed it so now you can instantly see at all times (no clicks needed).  So how could one miss this?

As for which units have moved, OB also uses roundels, just the same as the PG series used it for checking.  So again I am very weary of some of the things you've posted.

Please elaborate some more...

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: tomar
The 2 previous games I bought at matrix simply do not work (one does not even install the other one CTDs so as to make it unplayable)

Could you please open a tech support thread? Which is the other game that won't install?

This one CTDs frequently including so far a completely reproduceable CTD at the start 4th mission of the german campaign (and there wer ea number of other CTDs as well)... Moving an air unit makes the game crash... Ergo I can only play the first 3 missions.. .Great

Please post a DxDiag and the log files in a tech support thread for us so that we can find out what's going on. Apart from two reproducible CTDs reported so far that require specific behavior, the game is as stable as can be here on our systems. Moving an air unit does not make the game crash.

When you installed, did you allow the version of DirectX that came with the game to install? How up to date are your drivers (please post a DxDiag)? This sounds like a outdated driver or DirectX issue to me.

Other than that this game is somewhat disappointing. I have played all the games in the general series and other clones of the system. It is fascinating that the first one remains better than any of its descendants. Operation Barbarossa does not unfortunately break that trend. One would think than more than 10 years later it would be possible to come up with a variant that improved on the original (and panzer general was a mere 8 MB and never ever crashed).

I would imagine a game that constantly crashed would be disappointing. I would be much happier if you'd let us try to help you before posting a review though, as this is not typical behavior for this game on our systems or the systems of our testers.

Selecting units is sometimes a challenge especially when there is an air unit in the hex (even this was better in the original PG)

Just toggle to air unit mode and the air unit is selected.

While the game highlights the hexes your units can get to, sometimes you cannot get there for unexplained reasons (even when there no ennemy units anywhere around)

The only time I've seen this is when you enter the zone of control of a hidden enemy unit. In which case that unit appears in the "shadowed" area of the fog of war to tell you why your movement was halted. If you're not looking for it there, you may miss it. If this is not what's happening to you, then please post a save that duplicates this unexplained movement for you and we'll investigate it immediately.

When you click on engineer units to move them, about half the time they do something else instead and get frozen

This does not happen to me here. Can you elaborate?

VP hexes are not always clearly visible on the mini map (in scenario 2 I think I had to look over each town individually because some points were missing and were not visible on the mini map)

Sounds like this may be a scenario specific issue. In general, they are clearly visible as yellow dots.

In PG you could easily distingish the units that were your core army and the others, that is not the case here

Your core units have a flag next to their strength number.

In PG you could also easily see which units had acted and which had not

That's also easy to see in Operation Barbarossa, look at the roundels.

The unit graphics (as well as the terrain graphics) are somewhat outdated

This is subjective, I guess, so I'm sorry that the graphics are not to your taste.

Undo icon and end of turn icon are similar.. Since there is no confirmation for end of turn, if you confuse the 2 you end up ending the turn instead

I guess I can see how they look a bit similar, but they are not next to each other. One is the button on the far left, the other on the far right.

In addition to the ergonomy which makes the game not so plesant to use, the AI is really not very strong. It seems no worse, but no better than the one in PG. The main thing it knows how to do is to aggressively hunt for for your artillery units. If one of your arty units is in attack range then the AI will throw everything but the kitchen sink at it

If the AI is as good as PG, then we're pretty much ok with that. It can also vary by scenario based on how the designer set it. I've played through all the campaigns and had some interesting experiences with AI counterattacks and challenges.

Regards,

- Erik

[tmoj2000]

With all due respect, I'd give your review and comments a little more credibility if you'd first posted your tech gripes in the Tech Support Forum and sought an solution to your problems before blanket condemning the game and the company.  And given your claim that your two other Matix games would not install on your PC, you might want to consider that the problem may well lie in your machine.  Just my opinion and no offense intended.

 
Well my post states facts, and if you do not like or agree with them that does not make them less credible
With regards to the tech issues for the other 2 games I mentionned (which I do not want to name here) I did post in their tech forums several weeks back... with unfortunately no result (they remain as beached whales on my comp for the time being)....thereafter I decided not to entertain hopes that issues would be solved. And a CTD is not a tech gripe it is a product malfunction
I am perhaps a demanding customer but I expect products that I purchase to work. when it is not the case, I am disappointed. When I have problems with 3 products from the same company in a row, well, the disapointment becomes severe frustration.
With regards to my machine, it is less than 1 year old and with lots of hertzes, gigaabytes and the lot.... Other games and programs that are much more demanding in capacity run fine. Ergo I have difficulty believing that the machine is the culprit here. In any case your answer is typical of from customer service in many companies : if something does not work its either because the customer is an idiot or because some other piece of equipment is failing... But it cannot be our product, no sir...
In any case it seems I am not the only one experiencing CTDs, but perhaps these other customers also do not have the right machines or the right brains
No offense intended
 
 

Tomar, I believe the problem is you may be playing some other game under the same title?  Matrix even has another game with a similar title.

 
This is a good one.
It reminds me of a Doonesbury cartoon from the 70s. It goes something like this. A panel of senator is interrogating an old vietnamese woman who claims that her village has been bombed by US jets
"but are you sure these were american planes ? you see madam there are small planes and big planes, fast planes and slower planes .... " one of the senators say
"these were Phantom F4-Js" the old woman interrupts
"oh yes these are ours" the senator concedes
 
 
I have version 1.11 of a game called Operation Barbarossa, The Struggle for Russia, which was released just a few days ago. The very first thing you get when launching the game is an "Ogre" screen (whatever that is).....
 

I just don't understand this.  During the beta I asked for a method to easily determine which units are core at a glance.  It used to be you could tell so by checking the unit properties, but we changed it so now you can instantly see at all times (no clicks needed).  So how could one miss this?

As for which units have moved, OB also uses roundels, just the same as the PG series used it for checking.  So again I am very weary of some of the things you've posted.

I have not been clear enough. Unless there is a strategic map which I have missed -in which case my apologies- looking at the minimap all I see is red dots for my units. Now if you can tell at a glance which of these red dots are which type of units, which of them have moved and which of them are core, then great. I cannot. Otherwise you have to scroll around the map to get these details
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[Erik Rutins]

I'd be happy to help you if you let me know what issues you are having with our other games. Please note that we simply can't check every forum all the time, so I apologize if we've missed some threads. Our Help Desk is the best way to be sure that you get a response from us.

ORIGINAL: tomar
I have not been clear enough. Unless there is a strategic map which I have missed -in which case my apologies- looking at the minimap all I see is red dots for my units. Now if you can tell at a glance which of these red dots are which type of units, which of them have moved and which of them are core, then great. I cannot. Otherwise you have to scroll around the map to get these details

Are you saying you had a way to do this in Panzer General? I don't recall that, personally and I'm not sure how useful it would really be to have the minimap differentiate between core and auxiliary units when the main map already does. I'll add it to the wish list though.

[Obsolete]

I have not been clear enough. Unless there is a strategic map which I have missed -in which case my apologies- looking at the minimap all I see is red dots for my units.

Yes, you definitely were not clear on that.  And now... I am really puzzled.  The mini-map was there to be used as a mini-map.  Not to cram all the main statistical details onto a post-stamp-sized icon.  If this is the case, we need to now make a mini-map for the mini-map.

[Obsolete]

Are you saying you had a way to do this in Panzer General? I don't recall that, personally and I'm not sure how useful it would really be to have the minimap differentiate between core and auxiliary units when the main map already does. I'll add it to the wish list though.

When I think about it, PG did not come with any mini-map.  It did however have a stretegic map.  This was a function that would compress the main-map into the dimensions to fit onto one screen.  Then it had markers for objectives and unit blocks.  If you moved a unit, it would slightly darken that unit block on the strategic map.

This is most likely what he is after.  But I really don't see many people huging over trying to make out the small pixel details on the mini-map with this. 

[tmoj2000]

I'd be happy to help you if you let me know what issues you are having with our other games. Please note that we simply can't check every forum all the time, so I apologize if we've missed some threads. Our Help Desk is the best way to be sure that you get a response from us.

 
Thank you for your offer of assistance. For the other games in question please let me know where I can contact you, no point in this being in this forum.
 
 
With regards to this game.. I'll try to help out wiht pinpointing the issues. See text below. I unfortunately do not know what DxDiag is, nor do I really want to know and as a regular user I probably should not know anyway (nor do I want to know what is under the hood of my car)
 
Issues
With regards to the reproduceable CTD. Try this. During deployment, put a land unit and and air unit in the same hex, repeat with several units... Try different options of moving the air unit and/or the ground unit.... You should experience issues selecting the air unit, the range of the air unit if selected will seem to be that of the ground unit and then sometimes you will get a CTD.. that is what happens in my case
 
With regards to the engineers.. The issue stems from the fact that if you click on the engineers hex when the unit is already selected they will proceed to build fortifications or destroy brigde of whatever it is that they do (and this action cannot be undone). This seems to be the only land unit that acts when you click on its hex (at least as far as I know but perhaps there are others). Now when you want to act on a adjacent hex, the game does not always recognize this (depending on where you click in the hex).... generally depending on the position of the mouse in the hex you may actually hit an adjacent hex to the one you intended... so when this happens with an engineer unit instead of moving or attacking as you intended them to they instead build a fort in their own hex which ends their movement/actions for the turn
 
With regards to units not getting to where they should according to the highlited hexes I repeat that my point is not related to the presence of unknown ennemy units (if there is an unknown ennemy unit anywhere near I am fine with the fact that the unit's progression will be blocked). I will try to play some more to understand what may cause this.....might be related to friendly units that are in the way but I am not sure at this point. I will post here when I have more useful info.
 
Wishes
With regards to the end of turn/undo button I think a confirmation of end of turn (do you want to end the turn Y/N) would remove the issue
 
With regards to the strategic map, yes it is a helpful feature to be able to see all your units and the overall situation at a glance with more than dots. This is not at all a game breaker but something indeed for the wish list (and there was a "strategic map" in PG but that is irrelevant)
 
Comments relating to graphics and AI are not specific and reflect expectations that matrix can and will do better (hopefully in a patch that would be released "soon" or in the next installment of the series)

 

[rmielech]

ORIGINAL: tomar

I unfortunately do not know what DxDiag is, nor do I really want to know and as a regular user I probably should not know anyway (nor do I want to know what is under the hood of my car)

If you're going to come on here and pontificate about Matrix failures, maybe you'd do better to find out what IS under the hood, so to speak. In many instances so-called failures ARE user errors, and this can happen to experienced users as well. It will take you a lot less time to find out what DXDiag is than it took you to post here. If somebody tries to help you and you don't know what they're talking about, you need to become familiar with computer basics first so you can have a meaningful dialog. Otherwise you're basically saying this really bothers me, but not enough to take the time to learn what I may be doing wrong on my side of the equation.

[Rosseau]

I agree there are problems, but must disagree with your title, "Another Matrix failure."

This game does need a patch--what new game doesn't--but I am confident we will see one from Matrix.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: tomar
Thank you for your offer of assistance. For the other games in question please let me know where I can contact you, no point in this being in this forum.

Please e-mail me at erikr@matrixgames.com

With regards to this game.. I'll try to help out wiht pinpointing the issues. See text below. I unfortunately do not know what DxDiag is, nor do I really want to know and as a regular user I probably should not know anyway (nor do I want to know what is under the hood of my car)

You can see instructions on how to get a DxDiag in the Tech Support sub-forum here.

Issues
With regards to the reproduceable CTD. Try this. During deployment, put a land unit and and air unit in the same hex, repeat with several units... Try different options of moving the air unit and/or the ground unit.... You should experience issues selecting the air unit, the range of the air unit if selected will seem to be that of the ground unit and then sometimes you will get a CTD.. that is what happens in my case

Ok, I will see if I can reproduce that.

With regards to the engineers.. The issue stems from the fact that if you click on the engineers hex when the unit is already selected they will proceed to build fortifications or destroy brigde of whatever it is that they do (and this action cannot be undone). This seems to be the only land unit that acts when you click on its hex (at least as far as I know but perhaps there are others). Now when you want to act on a adjacent hex, the game does not always recognize this (depending on where you click in the hex).... generally depending on the position of the mouse in the hex you may actually hit an adjacent hex to the one you intended... so when this happens with an engineer unit instead of moving or attacking as you intended them to they instead build a fort in their own hex which ends their movement/actions for the turn

I see, so this basically comes down to a mis-click issue? Have you tried zooming out more to the more top down view? I find that playing in that view, I never mis-click as the hexes and units are not really at an angle.

With regards to units not getting to where they should according to the highlited hexes I repeat that my point is not related to the presence of unknown ennemy units (if there is an unknown ennemy unit anywhere near I am fine with the fact that the unit's progression will be blocked). I will try to play some more to understand what may cause this.....might be related to friendly units that are in the way but I am not sure at this point. I will post here when I have more useful info.

Ok, I have not seen this in recent builds, we did have a few issues like that in beta but as far as we could tell all were resolved. It sounds like we may have missed one, so the next time you come across it please save the game and e-mail it to me and tell me which unit to move. As long as we can reproduce it, we can fix it.

With regards to the end of turn/undo button I think a confirmation of end of turn (do you want to end the turn Y/N) would remove the issue

Ok, good suggestion.

With regards to the strategic map, yes it is a helpful feature to be able to see all your units and the overall situation at a glance with more than dots. This is not at all a game breaker but something indeed for the wish list (and there was a "strategic map" in PG but that is irrelevant)

Ok, so really you want a strategic map that's separate from the mini map. Would being able to zoom out further also address this wish for you?

Regards,

- Erik

[tmoj2000]

I see, so this basically comes down to a mis-click issue? Have you tried zooming out more to the more top down view? I find that playing in that view, I never mis-click as the hexes and units are not really at an angle.

Yes, I have. Well I would not call it a misclick, I find that when there a lots of units, clicking in the middle of a hex often gets an adjacent hex... but I see now that this issue has been raised by others as well re the engineers

Ok, so really you want a strategic map that's separate from the mini map. Would being able to zoom out further also address this wish for you?

Yes that would be fine.... When planning/ deploying a bird's eye view of the battlefield is quite helpful. Something larger than the minimap but fitting the whole battlefield on one screen

A separate e-mail has been sent ot you regarding issues with the other games

Thanks

[tmoj2000]

If you're going to come on here and pontificate about Matrix failures, maybe you'd do better to find out what IS under the hood, so to speak. In many instances so-called failures ARE user errors, and this can happen to experienced users as well. It will take you a lot less time to find out what DXDiag is than it took you to post here. If somebody tries to help you and you don't know what they're talking about, you need to become familiar with computer basics first so you can have a meaningful dialog. Otherwise you're basically saying this really bothers me, but not enough to take the time to learn what I may be doing wrong on my side of the equation.

I understand you do not represent matrix and you seem to believe that a paying customer has obligations to the company he has purchased products from.
Other than understanding dxdiag (which a lot of users around the world will be surprised to find is "computer basics") would you care to list any other such obligations , I need to be aware of them next time I think of purchasing a product.

[JudgeDredd]

Well, off the top of my head...
Processor make and speed
Amount of RAM (NOT Hard Drive space) in the machine
Graphics card make, model and memory allocation
Operating System (including service packs installed)
Hard Drive space remaining on your system

Thos are the very minimum of things you need to understand if you're going to play games in the PC world. If you're going to play games in the Console world, then things get much, much easier.

[PoorOldSpike]

I think the title of this thread 'Another Matrix failure' is a bit strong; I've got 13 Matrix games and every one installed and plays smooth as silk without a technical glitch of any kind.
I'm- WinXP Home
Intel core2 E8600@3.33Ghz
3 Gb RAM
Nvidia Geforce 9800 GTX 512Mb

PS- and not only does my rig handle all Matrix titles easily, but it also plays all other companies games and sims I throw at it..

[LarryP]

I own 35 Matrix titles and every one of them plays perfect on my PC's. I have 3 very different systems and every one of them has played flawless. [&o] Every one of them has installed flawless. [&o]

Now where's a piece of wood to knock on... [;)]

[rmielech]

I understand you do not represent matrix and you seem to believe that a paying customer has obligations to the company he has purchased products from.

The problem is you DON'T understand. Hardware and software for PC's are more than joined at the hip. If you want to get the best out of both you have to UNDERSTAND what's going on in both. If you've got time to play the game, you've got time to educate yourself about what you're playing it on so you know what you're talking about. It benefits you if there is a problem and it benefits you in getting the most out of your system so you'll enjoy to the max what you've purchased. Willful ignorance and an above it all attitude will not serve you well in this instance. The title of your thread is totally uncalled for. Matrix puts out fine products and supports them as well as anybody else does in the business, and no, I do not work for them. I just appreciate what they do and trust them to patch their stuff. They rarely disappoint.