If this game is going to be a Q1 2011 release...

[HintJ]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

ORIGINAL: HintJ

Many things I find quirky about Panzer Command may actually be bugs.

For example, an enemy unit that is most definitely spotted and targeted sometimes magically disappears during playback, even though the spotting unit is selected, tracking, and firing at it. I understand what relative spotting is, but I don't understand that.

Been here from the beginning, and I have to say that I haven't witnessed what you describe, what is, otherwise, so seemingly inexplicable.

In PCK, I have tested and retested and I state, w/100% certainty, this bug exists. It cannot possibly be a feature of relative spotting.

For example, if during the playback I rewind to the beginning, without selecting any friendly units, a certain enemy tank is present; however, if I click through every single friendly unit to figure out who spotted it, the spotted tank never shows up.

My opponent's tank is indeed spotted, but it isn't displayed when the spotting unit is selected. Sometimes it is even being tracked and fired upon by the spotting unit, but all I can see is a red rubber band shooting at empty space!

If you enjoy watching the playback from above the action w/no units selected, this isn't much of an issue, but if you prefer watching from each unit's bino view for increased immersion, this is very disconcerting.

Let's hope this has been fixed. I'm going to be all over it if it isn't.[8D]

[rickier65]

ORIGINAL: HintJ
Many things I find quirky about Panzer Command may actually be bugs.

For example, an enemy unit that is most definitely spotted and targeted sometimes magically disappears during playback, even though the spotting unit is selected, tracking, and firing at it. ......

........... Sometimes it is even being tracked and fired upon by the spotting unit, but all I can see is a red rubber band shooting at empty space!

Let's hope this has been fixed. I'm going to be all over it if it isn't.[8D]

Quite a lot of work was done on the sighting routines in PCO. Including a significant effort to eliminate some of the side effects of unbuttoning or buttoning during the Orders phase giving immediate sighting and therefore targetting benefits. Those benefits have now been pushed to the Orders resolution phase and the TacAI gets the benefits for both the Human and the AI player.

LOS calculations were also found to be a signficant contributor to performance issues. However the LOS routines will certainly allow for the situation where an enemy unit will appear and disappear during a turn resolution as either of the units move, or as other sighting factors that affect LOS occur during the resolution. So you will still see units appear and disappear during a turn resolution.

Having said that, I think you might also occasionally see what you describe where a unit gets targetted, and then disappears from view, and the targeting data doesn't get immediately refereshed. Hopefully this will not happen frequently, although part of this is the result of "target fixation" in which a gunner has a tendancy to fixate on a target that it's acquired rather than immediately switch to a different target. The frequency of sighting checks and retargetting by the Tactival AI has also been tweaked to achieive a balance for both performance and gameplay. Hopefully the result will acheive both goals.

Thanks
rick

[HintJ]

Well, I don't think most players would ever even notice this bug. It would take about 20+ screenshots from the same angle to prove it in my current PCK game, but I can prove it. Considering all the other improvements in PC, I'd imagine this has been fixed, but believe me, I'll let you know if it isn't!

edit* I'm not talking about when the game is playing and units appearing/disappearing. I'm talking about when the game is paused, and after about ten or so replays spotted units disappearing from the entire playback.

[Mad Russian]

I've seen it and my normal PBM opponent and I have commented on it before. I'm not sure why at times I can see something very clearly and then when the turn ends I can't see it.

With some thought though that makes at least reasonable sense.

Combat situations are all about motion and what you can see and what you can't see.

The situation described where you start playing what amounts to Peek-A-Boo with an enemy unit can get extremely frustrating fast! However, in a real life situation this would occur often. Where there are times that you just don't see them for more than a split second at a time.

Those of you that have ever hunted know how this can work as well.

So, while it still does happen every so often, I'm good with it and just try to get a better LOS to the unit and then the Peek-a-Boo is on You!

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: HintJ
In PCK, I have tested and retested and I state, w/100% certainty, this bug exists. It cannot possibly be a feature of relative spotting.

For example, if during the playback I rewind to the beginning, without selecting any friendly units, a certain enemy tank is present; however, if I click through every single friendly unit to figure out who spotted it, the spotted tank never shows up.

In PCK the sighting probably took place at some time during turn. The unit is 'remembered' at the end of the turn. But at the end as well as the beginning there is no LOS. The circumstances at the end of the turn and the beginning of the next are different that the instant it was sighted.

I wanted a feature that found my units that sighted a particular enemy unit - a reverse sighting feature. But this remembering would make that feature not as effective as I had thought.
PCO changes this a bit. Things aren't remembered as much but pop in and out of sight more often during the turn. In PCO you may not see the unit at the end or the beginning of the turn but if you do a replay it will pop into sight sometime in the middle of the turn.

[HintJ]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

I've seen it and my normal PBM opponent and I have commented on it before. I'm not sure why at times I can see something very clearly and then when the turn ends I can't see it.

With some thought though that makes at least reasonable sense.

Combat situations are all about motion and what you can see and what you can't see.

The situation described where you start playing what amounts to Peek-A-Boo with an enemy unit can get extremely frustrating fast! However, in a real life situation this would occur often. Where there are times that you just don't see them for more than a split second at a time.

Those of you that have ever hunted know how this can work as well.

So, while it still does happen every so often, I'm good with it and just try to get a better LOS to the unit and then the Peek-a-Boo is on You!

Good Hunting.

MR

Thanks MR! This has not been fixed. I've gone hunting before and expect a 20+ screenshot thread of a major bug!

[Mad Russian]

That's because this isn't a major bug. It's an annoyance that real soldiers, on real battlefields, also deal with.

It's also hard to come up with screen shots of a Peek-A-Boo situation.

Good Hunting.

MR

[HintJ]

ORIGINAL: Mobius
In PCK the sighting probably took place at some time during turn. The unit is 'remembered' at the end of the turn.

That's the problem! In the replay, we don't want what it "remembered" or what they saw at the beginning or end of the turn, we need current info of what it spotted at that exact moment.

[HintJ]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian


It's also hard to come up with screen shots of a Peek-A-Boo situation.

Good Hunting.

MR

*nevermind. We'll see and I'll complain loudly if we still have the PZK replay.

[rickier65]

ORIGINAL: HintJ

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian


It's also hard to come up with screen shots of a Peek-A-Boo situation.

Good Hunting.

MR

*nevermind. We'll see and I'll complain loudly if we still have the PZK replay.

I think I wasn't clear enough in my earlier reply, if you're referring to the situation you described above where a unit gets a target rubberband, but the unit doesn't show, then yes. It's likely a case where the unit was in sight, then sight was lost, and the target was not changed or refreshed. I think it's possible you will see it happen, though hopefully not as frequently.

Thanks
rick

[HintJ]

Thing is Rick, this problem doesn't usually show up until I've done a replay at least six or more times. You've been very clear and I think I understand your points. Imagine rewinding to the beginning of a phase, pausing the game, seeing an opponent unit on the screen, but when you individually select every single friendly unit, that particular unit never shows up on screen. So then who is spotting it?

[Mad Russian]

When I see it show up it's immediate. So, it seems that while part of what you are describing has been retained, other parts, of what you are seeing in PCK, have been changed in regards to Peek-A-Boo.

We'll see how it works for you now when you get PCO.

Good Hunting.

MR

[HintJ]

I may be making a bit much of this, and you're correct, I'll just have to wait until the new game comes out. If its still there I'll have to shrink and combine the screenshots. I really would dread posting 20+ shots just to prove it.

[rickier65]

ORIGINAL: HintJ

I may be making a bit much of this, and you're correct, I'll just have to wait until the new game comes out. If its still there I'll have to shrink and combine the screenshots. I really would dread posting 20+ shots just to prove it.

A simple description will probably suffice. Or perhaps just attaching the saved game. taking that many screenshots and shrinking would be pretty time-consuming and shouldn't be needed. I don't think it will be necessary for you to prove anything to any of us.

Thanks
Rick

[Mad Russian]

I agree. I don't think you'll have to prove anything to us. If I understand what it is your describing it is still in the game to an extent.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Stridor]

ORIGINAL: HintJ

Thing is Rick, this problem doesn't usually show up until I've done a replay at least six or more times. You've been very clear and I think I understand your points. Imagine rewinding to the beginning of a phase, pausing the game, seeing an opponent unit on the screen, but when you individually select every single friendly unit, that particular unit never shows up on screen. So then who is spotting it?

It has been fixed. But HintJ you are right, there were literally tens to hundreds of bugs in PCK which would be easy to miss or put down to the user not understanding the mechanics of the game. They bugged me too so I fixed them. However I am no longer on the team and so can't be sure what the new development members are doing with the code now.

S.