A Finnish Campaign? Does One Exist?

[KG Erwin]

OK -- for a long campaign, it can't be done. A generated campaign, easy enough I suppose, but the time period gives problems. Restricting it to the Winter War (Talvisota)wouldn't work, so I guess you'd have to make it a Continuation War (Jatkosota)campaign.

So, which terrain would it be in? Forest, I suppose. What's the timeline? June 1941 to September 1944, right ? How many battles would you suggest?

I have some info for Finn OOBs, BUT, what would be a reasonably accurate core force for 1941 given 2000 purchase points?

Give me some guidelines here, my Finn compatriots.

Another question: given the number of Finnish players we have, why have none of you done a DAR/AAR on a Finn campaign? That would be my intent.

PS I started a thread about the Finns a couple of months ago, but it fizzled. We DID determine that the long campaign format using a German template was unworkable.

So, a generated campaign is the only way to do it. I wouldn't have any tanks, except maybe a few captured Russian ones from the Winter War, so AT capability is a must. This is why I'm asking for some suggested realistic core forces.

My thought was to keep it to small maps, and picking three rifle companies with some heavy weapons support. That's it.

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

So, a generated campaign is the only way to do it.

Is Long, long road to victory generated campaign?

I wouldn't have any tanks, except maybe a few captured Russian ones from the Winter War

Actually, there were quite few Vickers (or Soviet replicas of them). If situation needed tanks, they were available. There was at least one tank division commanded by general major Ruben Lagus[/url]. If you want some tank action, you could dig more info about this one and play by it.

Note: Lagus didn't have all the tanks. Lauri Törni (also known as Larry Thorne) had temporarily few Vickers manned by his troops. Those tanks were later moved to be part of Lagus's division. In Lappland I guess germans had majority of tanks, but I guess some of them were sold or leased to Finland (or crewed by finns).

[Korpraali V]

Matti: Long, Long Road to Victory is designed campaign. Generated one is what you can make when choosing 'campaign' and then 'campaign generator' in SPWAW.

Gunny: Here you can find the basic structure of Finnish infantry formations:
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/FORMATIONS3.htm

Making Finnish DAR/AAR is a problem because - as said - usual campaign format won't give you proper maps to play with. Actually I've never tried generated campaign and what maps it would give. Shame me.

In general I really would like to see a Finnish campaign. There is one short, made by some US player, but I haven't played it yet. I think I should...

I'll try to write some suggestions later on.

[NoX]

No, none of the German tanks in Lapland were sold or leased to Finnish troops. However there were some instances early in the war (1941-1942) where a finnish division stationed in Lapland would operate whit the Germans and their Panzer III tanks. But the Panzer III's had German crews ofcourse.

As to Finnish tanks in Continuation war, early attack phase of Sep 1941- Spring 1942 saw the Finnish armored troops in action. As I recal it from June 1941- Aug 1941 the armored division was not engaged in actual combat (I could remember this wrong!). These Finnish tanks consisted of mainly T-26 and BT-5 tanks (captured in Winterwar) whit some English Vickers tanks in the mix. There were also four T-28 heavy tanks and one T-34 captured and used in the attack phase of 1941. The T-34 captured was one of 18 that attacked in the Svir river area in October? 1941... Later in 1942 two more T-34's were captured by finns.

After spring 1942 the Finnish frontline stabilized to trench warfare and Finnish armor did not see action until June 1944 when the Soviets launched their summer offensive. The armored troops were trained hard even when not in action and were all considered elite troops. By then (1944) Finns also had 30 Stug40 assault guns purchased from Germany in summer of 1943. During the Summer offencive two more T-34/76 and 9 T-34/85 were captured intact and also 3 T-34/76 were purchased from Germany and put to combat. In addition Finland had 2 KV-1 tanks captured in 1942 and hundreds of now obsolete captured T-26 and BT-5/7 tanks. Also 15 Panzer IV (J)'s and 30 more Stug40's were bought from Gemany but arrived too late to see action in the war.

In the Lapland war against the Germans from Sep 1944-April 1945 mainly the T-34/85's saw combat IIRC. Other tanks were also send North but due to the retreating Germans blowing all bridges and placing many minefields on roads the tanks were pulled out.

Trivia:
No captured T-34's were lost in combat by Finns, but many light tanks (T-26 / BT) were lost. We also lost 8 Stugs but they destroyed 84 Soviet tanks so its not a bad ratio. The numbers were from my memory so please correct me if I was wrong!

So if you like you could buy some tanks too in Continuation war campaigns. A good mix would probably be no more than 10-20 tanks since Finns rarely used more tanks in a single engagement. Often tanks were divided into platoons of only 3 tanks supported by a Jaeger company and used as a spearhead force or to counter enemy breaktroughs.

As to how the Infantry troops that did not have armor support, or faced heavy T-34 or KV-1 tanks in 1941. The only way to destroy the heavier Soviet armor in early war was to use heavy explosive packs placed directly on the enemy tanks by infantry or mines throwed under their tracks. 45mm/37mm AT guns and captured light T-26 tanks and T-28's were no mach for the heavier Soviet tanks. However most Soviet armor early in the war was light tanks and could be taken out by even the 45mm/37mm AT guns.

Btw. A funny thing is that when the Finns captured their first T-34 tanks it was noticable that it could not easily destroy another T-34. So good was the T-34's armor at that time.

Later from 1943 Finns purchased better AT weapons from germany the PAK 50mm and PAK 75mm guns. A couple of hundred guns or so was bought. It wasn't much but it helped alot. Ofcourse from Aprl 1944 onwards we bought for infantry the panzerfaust 30m and Panzershreck AT rockets and those were put into heavy use also in June/July 1944- Sep 1944).


Often the Finnish Winter war of Now 1939-March 1940 is given all the attention, but it was realy a small period lasting only the winter compared to the continuation war from June 1941-Sep1944 which saw much heavier fighting in a much larger scale.

Despite I consentrated on Finnish armor in this post the majority of the 350 000 or so Finnish soldiers were infantry on foot. Elite Jaeger infantry would pave the way infront dismounting from their bicycles to do combat in assaults. Regular infantryt traveled on foot whit the occasional trucks to provide motorized transport. Horses were wery much in use towing guns ammunition and other suplies. That is Continuation war, in Winterwar much less of everything.

Terrain was typicaly heavily wooded and laked whit narrow roads acting as life lines and also nicely channneling the heavy Soviet attack colums into more manageable streams that could be cut into smaller pockets by the Finns. Terrain further towards Russian Karelia was more open whit large fields and in the North tundra terrain. That was a much more difficult area for the smaller force to fight the larger force.


To any Finn interested in ww2 armored warfare I suggest reading Lehväslaiho's books "Panssarisotaa 1941-1944" and "Sotkalla Sodassa". Also the book "Punaiset Panssarit" by Kantakoski is wery informative reading regarding Finnis and Soviet armor in the wars.

[NoX]

Ofcourse the terrain was not just trees and lakes as far as the eye could see, thats a cliche .

Here are links to some maps:

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/J ... ykset.html

And some battle photos from Continuation war to get you a general idea:

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/J ... at001.html

[Korpraali V]

Good info, Lahtinen [:)] ...as usual [;)]

I forgot... there is another Finnish campaign made by Puukkoo. It's about Finns retaking Suursaari island in winter 1942. It's quite short but very good campaign. IIRC it was made for Enhanced v.1 ... or to 8.403b


I was one of the testers...

[Kuokkanen]

and one T-34 captured and used in the attack phase of 1941. The T-34 captured was one of 18 that attacked in the Svir river area in October? 1941... Later in 1942 two more T-34's were captured by finns.

I remember that 1st captured T-34! It was captured somewhere around Viborg and Mannerheim himself came congratulate man who did it. When Mannerheim asked his opinion about the war, man said: "No matter what we do, Finland can't win this war". Silence. Mannerheim: "This man deserves medal!"

The only way to destroy the heavier Soviet armor in early war was to use heavy explosive packs

Those are called satchel charges. Didn't Molotov's cocktail do anything?

To any Finn interested in ww2 armored warfare I suggest reading Lehväslaiho's books "Panssarisotaa 1941-1944" and "Sotkalla Sodassa". Also the book "Punaiset Panssarit" by Kantakoski is wery informative reading regarding Finnis and Soviet armor in the wars.

I don't know any of those, but I've read Laguksen Rommelit by Voitto Ormansuo. Also in book Elämä lyhyt, Rytkönenen pitkä mr. Rytkönen describes one battle where he and his buddies with Vickers attacked in night over frozen lake against (likely unmanned) KVs and destroyed some of them [X(]

[Korpraali V]

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen
Also in book Elämä lyhyt, Rytkönenen pitkä mr. Rytkönen describes one battle where he and his buddies with Vickers attacked in night over frozen lake against (likely unmanned) KVs and destroyed some of them [X(]

That's actually a novel (romaani), not basing on history but writer's imagination.

[NoX]

No, not Viborg(Viipuri), but river Svir(Syväri). The first T-34 tank was captured near river Svir and the hydro-electric power plant area. That T-34 was stuck in a tree stump and abondoned by it's original crew. The Finnish (T-26) crew freed it and drove it to Petroskoi (Äänislinna). It first took part in action in the capture of Karhumäki and Poventsa (next to Stalin's canal) in Nowember-December 1941 where it proved a valuable asset to the Finnish armored division.

The armored brigade did not operate in the Karelian Isthmus(Karjalan kannas) area in 1941 attack phase, but were north of lake Lagoda(Laatokka). It was not until 1944 that the by then armored division operated in the Karelian Isthmus area.

Check this video from you tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNbpIbFzLGU
It shows among other things the capture of Karhumäki and Poventsa whit some finnish armor(T-26's) and the flooding of Stalin's canal by the Soviets.


The molotov cocktails were a stop-gap weapon used when satchel charges or other better AT weapons were unavailable. Satchel charges were much more available to Finnish troops in Continuation war than in the Winterwar.

In regards to T-34's, KV's and the other later war Soviet tanks, they were alot better protected against molotov cocktails. This was not only due to their better mobility, firepower and armor, but also their engine air ventalation systems which were better designed against fire hazards than say a T-26's or T-28's. Also T-26 and T-28 tanks had a more volatile gosoline engine instead of diesel.

Good information about Molotov Coctails here:
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/OTHER_AT_WEAPONS1.htm

[LostLT]

I'm currently working on a campaign based around the III/Nordland of 5.SS-Wiking, the Finnish Volunteer Battalion. Ive pretty much finished the research for it, and am now tinkering with the initial scenarios themselves.

If you read any of the history of this the battalion, it's pretty interesting stuff.

LostLT

[sami heimola]

Aah my everlasting dream about getting play whole Continuation War campaign[:'(]... I have never seen that made by anyone[:(]. From attack phase 1941 to the end of war 1944... But maybe someday[8|]?

[LostLT]

Well, this story of the Finnish Volunteer Battalion isn't really Continuation War stuff - they were part of Kleist's Army Group that went into the Caucasus in an attempt to seize the Russian oil fields.  They got farther into Russian territory than any other unit in the German armed forces after taking Hill 701 near Malgobek.  They then saved 13th Pz. Div near Ordonizsche, cutting a route through Russian lines and allowing 13th Panzer to withdraw.  As a result of Operation Uranus (Stalingrad), they had to pull back to the Donets line with the rest of Kleist's forces.  Before being withdrawn back to Finland in the early summer of 1943, they participated in the destruction of Mobile Group Popov, the Soviet attempt to capitalize on Uranus and destroy the two southernmost German Army Groups, over a third of the German forces in Russia. 

I have always thought it would be interesting to see a fairly average German unit simulated - no tanks, just trucks, wagons, and a lot of well-trained infantry (tanks will be attached occasionally, artillery often). The player will get to use both Finns (for their Suomi SMGs, satchel charges, and Lahti AT rifles) and SS units.  Part of the purpose of the campaign will be to examine the problems an average German battalion would face - there are many campaigns in which the player gets a nice combined arms force, but I haven't seen any in which they are forced to use mostly infantry (except in the Pacific).  I'll also be creating some unique fights, such as ambushes, battles with partisans and cossacks, recons-in-force, and other stuff I haven't seen before in the game rather than the traditional attack/defend/meeting engagement style games.

Truly an awesome story (I think) and will make for an interesting campaign.  I want to make it as accurate as possible to the real story of the battalion, and I do need some help, especially with translating Finnish into English, if anyone is interested... ;D  My understanding is that the best book on the battalion is in Finnish, which I don't speak or read at all...