How is the score calculated?

Mentat · Post by **Mentat** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 12:19 pm

I have played some of the large Stalingrad battles that come as scenarios with the SPWAW 7.1 game and it is clear that the score is NOT calculated as points for victory hexes + value of destroyed and damaged enemy units.

In one battle (Prelude to Disaster) I more or less crushed the enemy without too much losses and in the end the opponent still had one victory hex worth 100p at the end of the battle. The score was formally a draw but I lost in points with something like 10,000 to 20,000! Viewing the map after the battle did not reveal any hidden victory hexes. As far as I could see, all victory hexes were of the type "at the end of the battle", not "per turn".

So, how are the points awarded really?

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 12:34 pm

What was the casualty count? You get points for destroying enemy units as well. (and retreating units off the battlefield)

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 5:44 pm

Belisarius wrote:What was the casualty count? You get points for destroying enemy units as well. (and retreating units off the battlefield)

Are you sure about that? I suppose you're talking about a specific scenario, but I was thinking that even the 'advancing' units off the board scored no points anymore. I never heard of retreating units counting for points. I don't even think Panzer Strike gave points for retreating. I also think SPWW2 doesn't give points for getting units off the board one way or the other. I'm pretty sure the SPWAW base, that is SP3, gave points for advancing units off the board, but I've never heard of retreating units counting for anything (no wonder I show the enemy no mercy!). Maybe you're talking about someone in a scenario assigning a rearward set of hexes (or the entire rearward border) as a point where that same side can 'advance' to those hexes, therefore seeming like points for retreat. I'm also not sure if you're talking about getting points for 'retreating' your own units or for knocking the enemy units to retreat off the board. What say ye?

Mentat · Post by **Mentat** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 6:29 pm

Well, the casuality count should not really be of any interest here - the score is strange anyway. I have more or less annihilated the enemy forces and have suffered surprisingly low losses myself, with a lot of units down to 2 och three men but not actually destroyed.

I hold all the victory hexes save 1. Still, the AI is awarded 20,000 points to my 10,000. As one side of the map is the river Volga, the russians cannot really have made an exit of any forces. Where did those 20,000 points come from?

The sum of all my losses might have been 2,000 according to the list of units and the damage value assigned there, but not 20,000. I have noticed this effect ni other scenarios too - the AI has a lot of points that I do not understand where they come from.

Btw, Gothenburg is only some 270 km from here....

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 10:52 pm

Mentat wrote:Well, the casuality count should not really be of any interest here - the score is strange anyway. I have more or less annihilated the enemy forces and have suffered surprisingly low losses myself, with a lot of units down to 2 och three men but not actually destroyed.

I hold all the victory hexes save 1. Still, the AI is awarded 20,000 points to my 10,000. As one side of the map is the river Volga, the russians cannot really have made an exit of any forces. Where did those 20,000 points come from?

The sum of all my losses might have been 2,000 according to the list of units and the damage value assigned there, but not 20,000. I have noticed this effect ni other scenarios too - the AI has a lot of points that I do not understand where they come from.

Btw, Gothenburg is only some 270 km from here....

If some of the objectives are 'timed' and you got most of them late in the scenario, that would help account for the difference. Of course another easy to clear up some of the difference is seeing just how much what you didn't take costs in points, but I'd assume you already account for that. You can see that if the enemy, for instance, held all objectives at the start, and the scenario is 20 turns long (are they ever longer than that?

) and those were times objectives, that even if they were just ten points apiece, that adds up pretty quick. "IF" the enemy holds 20 more 10 point times hexes than yourself at the start, and say you took them all on the 10th turn, you're already down 2000pts. on that alone (though the turns after that you'd start catching up)!!!! Seemingly cheap timed hexes, if that's what you have, cna add up 'real' quick.

The bottom line is pretty much this, though the situation can vary a bit: If you can see yourself giving up 2000 or more points, you can pretty much consider yourself as getting a marginal victory at best. Usually my experience in campaigning has been that if I don't take or hold all the objectives, irrespective of whether any of them are timed or not, you can pretty much count a major victory as lost.

Remember another thing mentat, EVERY loss counts against you. You don't get escape loss by the unit surviving (though the entire loss of the squad cost won't be weighed against you if it survives). Every single man counts against you if lost. If half of your infantry, or more, were down to 3-4 men, you didn't do as well in the loss column as you thought. I can't tell you how much points each man lost counts, but infantry are probably one point apiece, and when the squad is lost the cost of the squad on top of that I'd imagine. I'm not sure if AFVs losing a man costs against your points, but probably so, and whether they cost more to lose because of their being part of a more expensive unit, I cannot say (my guess is all men lost cost the same, except if one man lost means the destruction of a unit, such as a sniper).

Mentat · Post by **Mentat** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 11:59 pm

The victory hexes are not timed, if by that you mean that they give a number of points each turn - at least they are described as "xxx p at the end of the battle".

The scenario is no 104 in the scenario list, "Prelude to disaster". It is 32 turns long. I agree that the impression from the score is that the victory hexes give points each turn, but how are you supposed to know that if the game tells you differently?

Is this a bug or is there another explanation to the strange score?

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 12:07 am

Mentat wrote:The victory hexes are not timed, if by that you mean that they give a number of points each turn - at least they are described as "xxx p at the end of the battle".

The scenario is no 104 in the scenario list, "Prelude to disaster". It is 32 turns long. I agree that the impression from the score is that the victory hexes give points each turn, but how are you supposed to know that if the game tells you differently?

Is this a bug or is there another explanation to the strange score?

I would venture to guess that if it said what you just said it does, there's no way you could have those hexes timed, or at least I'd never heard of any such thing. I wonder if there's a way with scenarios where they automatically give 5000pts. to the enemy at the start of the scenario?

Mentat · Post by **Mentat** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:12 am

I always imagined that the score was the sum of the victory hexes points and the damage values given in the list of units. Now I played a short little scenario and can see that this is NOT the case.

So, back to my original quiestion: How is the score calculated? Anyone?

Warrior · Post by **Warrior** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 3:04 pm

You might as well ask how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Seriously, I'm sure there is some formula about scoring, but I've never been able to figure it out.

StealthPR · Post by **StealthPR** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 3:30 pm

hi,

i am playing this game now...hmm 10 years? who cares

but i never checked the score out...my freind and me don`t play with score because its always a draw no matter if i crush him or he crushes me...
we make our own rules....loosing the A0 unit for example = defeat because thats your player in our game

Svennemir · Post by **Svennemir** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 9:03 pm

The scenario could be bugged due to conflicting OOBs in different versions of SPWAW. That might make certain units very expensive in points. But this is rather unlikely.

chief · Post by **chief** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 10:16 pm

I looked into that scene just for giggles and I found that it's quite possible with the number of troops available that a fantastic score could be accumulated. Just a quick check showed that a German (10 man) squad cost was 25, my rough figures show that = 2.5 pts/man and I didn't go into the two large units of Elite German Engineers which I'm sure cost a lot, even the AFVs that could have been lost in that battle. I was under the impression that for every vehicle lost points (ency. price) was deducted, for every unit evacuated/retreated no loss points, for every member of a squad a partial count (as above)(2.5/man for a German infantry squad). Offboard artillery lost really hurts etc. Just an old mans opinion. HTH

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 2:15 am

chief wrote:I looked into that scene just for giggles and I found that it's quite possible with the number of troops available that a fantastic score could be accumulated. Just a quick check showed that a German (10 man) squad cost was 25, my rough figures show that = 2.5 pts/man and I didn't go into the two large units of Elite German Engineers which I'm sure cost a lot, even the AFVs that could have been lost in that battle. I was under the impression that for every vehicle lost points (ency. price) was deducted, for every unit evacuated/retreated no loss points, for every member of a squad a partial count (as above)(2.5/man for a German infantry squad). Offboard artillery lost really hurts etc. Just an old mans opinion. HTH

BTW, chief, I think the AFV loss awarded to the enemy is based on the units cost to you, not the ency. value. Lose a unit with 120 experience that's normally 50pts. and you're looking at a much more expensive loss. OTOH, the really shabbily experienced nations will have losses below the ency. values. I think the ency. values are based on a unit with 70 experience are they not?

chief · Post by **chief** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:06 am

You may be correct Charles I just guessed at a number from what was available, I knew it was based on one or the other. What I really was trying to get across was that the size of that battle could generate the scores he recieved. Have a LOOK at the troops involved and see if we concur that the possible score tally was correct.

Fallschirmjager · Post by **Fallschirmjager** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:30 am

Charles is correct....to an extent

To get the FULL point value from destroying those units....you must also kill the crews as they are part of the vehicles value

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 4:46 am

chief wrote:You may be correct Charles I just guessed at a number from what was available, I knew it was based on one or the other. What I really was trying to get across was that the size of that battle could generate the scores he recieved. Have a LOOK at the troops involved and see if we concur that the possible score tally was correct.

For my part I can't possibly do that, as I don't have it on my new computer yet. I don't plan to put it on until one or both of the following occur, and perhaps not even then (having fun with RGW and CIV3 PTW at this time): 1) That V8.0 is released 2) That I found out for sure that slow mice aren't common to straightup installs in XP systems.

It's too bad we can't get a screenprint of the losses and also of the lineups.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:33 am

Fallschirmjager wrote:Charles is correct....to an extent

To get the FULL point value from destroying those units....you must also kill the crews as they are part of the vehicles value

Well that's an interesting thought. It seems you are saying, that if a 50pt. AFV is destroyed, with a 5 man crew, and let's say the crew is worth 5pts., that if the crew gets away you'll only be credited with 45pts. for the AFV. I hadn't thought about that...My thoughts have been, and it's always been a guess, that the crew is worth whatever the price for men is, in which I'm guessing they're always 1 point apiece, be that from an expensive unit or not. My theory is that crew cost the same across the board, even men from an infantry squad. But I'm also of the thinking that the value of said AFV or foot unit doesn't go down for the loss of men (but in the case of foot units 1pt. per man is rewarded to the other side). IOW, a tank surviving a hit but losing a man, wouldn't make a 50pt. tank go down to 49pts. When the tank is destroyed it's worth 50pts., but then if there are survivors there's a 'bonus' unit of the crew, which is worth additional points.

Perhaps my reasoning is difficult to follow here, but I'm thinking that the loss of a man in a foot unit, gives one point to the enemy, however, the value of my unit remains the same as it was in the beginning. I'm thinking if the enemy were to kill a 9 men in the squad on the first shot, his score would go up 9 points, but only when he got that last man (10 man squad) would he get it's full value (IOW, those 9pts. wouldn't be deducted from the value of the unit such that a 30pt. unit is worth only 21pts to the enemy, but the full 30pts. instead - if the squad was destroyed in one burst losing 10 men, all you would get is 30pts., but if men were lost incrementally that would enable the possibility of scoring a total of 39pts.).

I don't think the enemy gets a single point for killing a man in a tank (maybe there's some scoring for damage though). IOW, I'm seeing these crews we're seeing running around as a 'new unit' whereupon the points you get for it are in excess of the original unit, thereby causing the destruction of an AFV outright giving you less points than destroying that same AFV and wiping out any crew.

I'm not sure why I think the enemy gets 1 point for each man killed outside of those men being in an AFV, while I think the men lost in AFV's (while in the AFV) don't score anything, but that's my thoughts.

Here's a wrapup:

foot unit etc. 1 man lost = 1 point for the enemy
squad or gun lost = full points for that unit to the enemy

AFV 1 man lost = no points for the enemy (though damage may reward points, which of course all damage isn't casualties)
AFV destroyed = full points for that unit to the enemy
crew surviving = 1 point for each man destroyed to the enemy.

I'm really sceptical that every man lost, be that to a foot unit whilst the unit still survives or an AFV, would cost the precise split of those men into the total value of the unit. It sounds sort of nifty, but it wouldn't work too well, because there really isn't that much of the scoring system, if at all, that seems to be affected by the number of men in the unit. I mean this would be particularly true of AFV's because so much of the cost is based on armor and the effectiveness of the guns.

It would be interesting to know the real deal.

chief · Post by **chief** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:21 am

I agree on crew kill also.

Fallschirmjager · Post by **Fallschirmjager** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:22 am

Hmm

I always thought...

lets say you have a 10 man team...lets say that team is worth 100 points (its a high number but this is for example sake) when you kill one man in that unit...you get 10 points

So....
Number of points earned is the number of men killed divided by total cost of the unit

Now I may be wrong....
But that is how it SHOULD work to be a good system

I also either disagree of misread something in your above post...
The cost of a crew is not adverse to how many men are in the crew....
Look at wittmans crew in the Villars Bocage scenario...I think just the crew is like 10-15 points ( I dont have the game on thos machine otherwise id check)

chief · Post by **chief** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 9:20 am

The way I seed it was Sherman cost 150 crew no posted cost....sherman destroyed, crew escapes, no points to destroyer, on the other hand crew destroyed then or later full 150 points to destroyer. Destroy a 30 pt 10man inf squad 30 pts to destroyer, destroy only 7, 21 pts etc. I personally don't think (working without tools here) that game can handle a crewed vehicle any other way. Unfortunately. IMO